I feel strongly that you should go to Brandeis.

If you go to Brandeis, you can take 6-8 grad math courses for credit, and most likely be a standout student and get strong recs.

Keep in mind NYU is a #1-ranked program in some subfields of math, and the grad students there will be super solid (and definitely much stronger than you are at the moment). If you sit in on a few classes there, you will have a tough time doing well, and will have a tough time getting good recs. A very strong rec from a lesser known professor means way more than a mediocre/weak rec from someone better known. The latter is pretty worthless actually.

Think about how your essay and recs will go if
a) You get straight As in Brandeis' program and are a standout student.
b) You sit in a few random NYU/Columbia classes, don't get a degree/certificate, perform in the middle of the pack, and get mediocre recs.

That's fair, although I'm not convinced I'm ready for grad level coursework atm...I'm sure Wyman would agree haha

Yeah what I wrote applies for undergrad coursework too. You can probably do some research at Brandeis too if you do well, while you have close to zero chance of getting a Columbia/NYU prof to work with you as a non-degree student. I think it's a no-brainer, assuming it doesn't pose a financial burden.

It's a 2-semester program. When do you think he can do research?

If you're serious about this, I'd say second BS is the best chance of actually having a career in math. Think about this from the perspective of a professor on a review committee, you see an applicant who has no track record of research, nor even a long term commitment to doing math. The first question they need to ask about an applicant is , "is there evidence that this person will be able to finish a PhD?". If you can't commit to 2 years in order to getting the basic background knowledge all the other applicants are expected to have, how can they expect that you will be able to put 6+ years in?

The key is to not think of yourself as an applicant in a vacuum, but in a pile of other applications. Specifically, a pile where every single other applicant will have an undergraduate degree in math, many of whom will have research experience. It is actually especially concerning for lower tier schools as they are likely to have way less funding, so gambling on someone with no track record is likely a really unappealing prospect. Remember, masters programs can take whoever because they will be paying tuition, but a PhD is a big, long-term investment from a likely cash-strapped department.

Valid point. It is unlikely that he can really do any research until he's taken a year's worth of intro classes in any case. I assume if he applies to PhD programs it would be in fall 2014 (to start in 2015), and not in 2013? I think he will have a tough time putting together a strong app for 2013, but it is definitely doable for 2014 if he does well in courses and starts some research.

The Brandeis program description says: "We also offer a Master of Arts degree for students with a strong undergraduate background in mathematics, and a Post-Baccalaureate Program in Mathematics for students with a bachelor’s degree (in any field) who would like to expand or deepen their mathematical skills for use in the workplace or in preparation for graduate programs in mathematics, science or social science."

So it sounds like some graduates from the post-bac have gone on to graduate school in math. I would email the person in charge and ask for information on what prior post-bac graduates have done, and possibly contact some of the ones who went to grad school.

Ideally he could do some sort of 2-year program where the second year has a research component, but I'm not sure if such programs exist (maybe there is a good MS program). It looks like some British Universities have 1-year programs that focus on research, e.g.,
http://maths.york.ac.uk/www/GspMsc_by_thesis
So theoretically he could do Brandeis for a year, then something like that. Or the Brandeis M.S. might make more sense. Yeah MS programs cost a lot of money, but it sounds like he is ok in that regard, and the expense is pretty trivial in the scheme of things if it helps put him on a fulfilling career path.

I guess, but obviously after the kid pays for 4 years at Brown, I'm reluctant to send him to a 40k/yr postbac that prepares him for exactly a 40k/yr MS at the same school...

It is pretty nuts that it is that expensive. I don't see how the fact that he paid for his undergrad is relevant if he still has enough money to comfortably afford the postbac/MS. It all comes down to his personal goals and preferences really. I left a very high-paying job to do my PhD, and I'm really happy with my decision and where it will allow me to go in life. But for other people with different life priorities it would have been a horrible decision.

Again, ignore the cost component. What I paid for undergrad is a sunk cost. Let's focus on the salient issues here (read: not cost).

Ok

Fmp

The postbac is 6 courses total, so it's not full time. (Being a nit obv.)

First, my experience has been that postbac certificates are relatively unusual...at my institution at least, departments put little emphasis or effort into them. I STRONGLY feel that these are absolutely designed for people to fulfill a valid professional need and to put a little easy money into department coffers. YMMV.

I also think you should do some research (CWIDT?) into the requirements for a second BS. Particularly if you get the second BS at the same institution as the first, advisors should be able to facilitate its attainment. The requirements should align with those if you were getting a concurrent second BS. Extra-math course work (beyond prereqs) should be minimal, I think. Again, it depends on the outlook of the institution.

Not totally sure I understand re: 2nd BS but my undergrad doesn't allow that

And I'm not really trying to discourage you from pursuing this. But I want to give you a clear picture of the road ahead. You're way way behind, and while the post-bac gets you closer in terms of coursework, there are no guarantees.

Keep in mind also that your score on the math (subject) GRE is going to be massively important. And depending on the year, there can be emphasis on Sylow theorems (which you'll learn in algebra), point-set topology (some of which you'll learn in real analysis, some of which you won't learn until a topology class), integration in the complex plane around keyhole-shaped contours to evaluate a real integral (complex analysis), fundamental groups (intro algebraic topology), etc. Stuff you won't have seen in basic coursework. It's maybe 5-10% of the questions, and you'll either have to learn it on your own or be a good guesser.

Money aside, you'll be in the same boat if you finish the coursework at either place, get similar recs, and get similar GRE scores, so you might just decide to go where you want to live.

One extra consideration is that Columbia and NYU have good grad programs so -- since you're living in the department basically -- you'll be able to attend tons of seminars, talk to grad students, and get a sense of what they are actively working on.

Re: seminars. You should just go and try to osmose something from them. Most research level seminars will be at a level you (and the grad students!) can't understand (i.e., they are mostly pointless for you, and often they are pointless for everyone but the speaker), but there should be some grad student-led seminars that should be somewhat more accessible. You won't understand everything (and you might not really understand anything), and you're not there to follow technical work. You're there to get a sense of what people find important, what people are interested in and working on, and how grad students learn. If you can learn one definition in a talk or understand just a little bit of something, it was valuable for you. But, bring a crossword or some homework, because all you're going to learn will be contained in the first 15 minutes (or less).

Re: a 2 year BS. This might work, but research in Y2 is not as helpful; grad school apps are due in the fall. With either this option or the post-bac, I'd say he should aim to work on some research over the summer at the end of his 1st year of schooling.

Actually, if $ is really no object, maybe do a 2yr BS somewhere, but still take like 8 math classes your first year, spend the summer doing research and take an undergrad elective, a grad class, and research in the fall of your 2nd year. And more grad classes or undergrad electives and research in the spring if that's still going well.

This IMO would be a good use of your time and even your $. I am done harping on the money, but I figured I should let you know if I found an option that I thought would be worth it.

The point about you not getting access to profs and being blown out of the water by good students at NYU/Columbia is a very good one and one that I hadn't really considered.

But I also agree w Zoltan -- the general attitude toward post-bacs is not that these are strong students that just decided later in life to change course; they are generally just viewed (like MA/MS incidentally) as cash cows. You pay your $ and sit in a room and we give you a certificate.

Maybe this is naive but does it matter how Brandeis views it given that I'll be applying out (if I decide to go the grad route)?

Even if Brandeis offers it just to make $, if it gives me what I want seems like a good deal...no? Unless it hurts my app *because* other schools view it as less serious or something

The point was that the community at large views a post-bac differently, yes.

Oh, why is that? Seems like if I perform in the *same* courses as undergrads, what's the diff?

That's a really fair question, and I don't have a good answer for you.

I'm also not claiming that your application won't be seriously considered because of the post-bac or anything. I do think it will be looked at differently. I don't think there are actually enough data points to say with any confidence what a standard post-bac --> grad school applicant looks like.

Why don't you email the grad chair at a couple of schools on your list? Tell them your situation, and see what they recommend. Post results here. If nothing else, they might remember your name when you apply there in the future.

That said -- I know at top schools, your GPA/coursework is really not the most important criterion. Of course they don't want to see a terrible GPA, but you'll get in, or not, based in large part on your GRE and on your letters (which will usually encompass any research you've done anyway). I can't speak to graduate admissions at many schools though.

Any non-degree credential is looked at as "less serious" ime. Whether this is TRUE or not doesn't matter; it's all about perception.

Also, re: 2nd bs...as a broad generalization, a school will generally confer a 2nd degree upon completion of at least 50% of the requirements of a degree plan in addition to major requirements. That will typically cover all major courses and maybe a semester or two of prereqs etc? In any case it should be ~2 years (slightly) optimistically.

This is probably fairly standard language:
Note that is you already have a BA you're probably have to do a BS, so if the department of interest doesn't offer the "other" degree, never mind.

So Brown explicitly states that, once you have graduated as an undergrad, you cannot obtain a second bachelors. You can, of course, obtain two degrees at graduation, but not one before and one after...

Are you trying to get a second bs from brown? Because I'm pretty sure they can't tell Brandeis what to do re: second bachelor's degrees.

Mariogs, if you were female this would be perfect!
http://www.math.smith.edu/center/postbac.php

The Postbaccalaureate Program is for women with bachelor's degrees who did not major in mathematics or whose mathematics major was light. This program is open to all women with a serious interest in pursuing a higher degree in the mathematical sciences. Successful applicants will have completed at least Linear Algebra and Vector Calculus before enrolling in our program. The program is designed to make you "graduate school ready" in one year ...

Every student has the opportunity to join a research team, working on a project with a Smith faculty member ...

A full tuition waiver and a $12,500 stipend to cover living costs are available to every U.S. citizen or permanent residents who is admitted to the Post-baccalaureate Program. This generous financial aid package is made possible by the support of the National Science Foundation and Smith College.

Seriously though, Brandeis is a #40 ranked program:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsa...ankings/page+2

Just crush the postbac there and continue on for a PhD imo.

Except that if Brandeis is a top 50 school, they probably aren't admitting too many Brandeis post-bacs.

a) It's really uncommon for people to stay at one school for undergrad and PhD; it's healthy to gain exposure to more people, more areas of research, etc.

b) Brandeis's PhD program is going to be getting solid applicants from good schools throughout the country.

This is why a long time ago I recommended that Mariogs find out what people are going on to do after getting a Brandeis post-bac, but he brought back 2 data points -- one in a Brandeis PhD program and one in a Brandeis masters program.

If he can do post-bac to PhD at Brandeis, this would not be a terrible option, but even with solid performance, I doubt that there are guarantees. In fact, as I've said from the start, I doubt that there's much data that we can go on, since most post-bacs (I suspect) are not applying to grad school. But these are all things that he should be asking people at Brandeis about rather than us conjecturing.