Official Ph.D question/advice thread

[bobboufl11]

Originally Posted by gumpzilla

bobboufl11,

I'd say going to any sort of technical grad school because you're interested in teaching and aren't sure if high school would be sufficiently interesting is a bad plan. It's super common - I'd say loosely a combination of that and the kick the can down the road phenomenon you mentioned were elements of it for me - but it doesn't really lead to good outcomes. The problem is that you're getting into what is potentially a very long commitment with a) not much idea whether you'd even really like the outcome you're currently envisioning as ideal, and b) probably undermotivated to actually succeed on the level that is necessary to make attaining that ideal at all likely.

To do anything resembling well at grad school you really need to work hard. That is challenging to do if you aren't either strongly personally self-motivated (which usually means obsession with the material that it doesn't sound like you have) or willing to endure a real taskmaster type advisor. And at the end you're competing with many other similarly talented, hard-working people for a pretty small pool of jobs. This is why the generic advice of "don't go to grad school unless you have a damn good reason for doing so" is so solid, although I admit hard to take seriously at the time you're thinking about getting in.

Yeah, I'm not sure I have that crazy sort of dedication. As well as teaching and being a professor, I do like the thought of being a math beast but am not sure I have that drive to work for so many years on it.

I think what I'll do is major in Econ+Stat, take the math major classes as my elective for Stat, and take as many more math classes as I can before I graduate without dying. Then maybe try to take like 1 math class a semester as a transient student while working(possible?). Along the way I'll ask professors about their research and keep an eye out for opportunities, and if I find anything really exciting from there consider shifting back to the grad school path. Or if being an actuary or w/e random stats/business job sucks the life out of me maybe I'll give grad school/HS teaching another thought

[aditya]

wrt the discussion on getting research experience by asking a professor, is that only applicable when you are a student at that specific university? I'm currently employed full-time but I would like to get some research experience to basically see if i find it interesting and also to learn obv. How likely are professors to accept research help if I'm only able to do it over the weekends? I assume I'm pretty much drawing dead here (although I have 3 big universities near me so maybe it increases a tiny bit.)

[Wyman]

yes pretty much drawing dead

basically profs mentor students as a service to the community. As an undergrad you're not really expected to make any meaningful contribution to the field, certainly not any worth the time the prof needs to put into you. So the profs do it out of the goodness of their hearts... and because they can write it up when they get reviewed for promotion. They really have no incentive at all to work with a random outsider. Obviously you never know who will surprise you, but i wouldn't get my hopes up.

[zoltan]

Originally Posted by furyshade

Since there has been a lot of job market discussion here, I was wondering what the outlooks for no academic jobs are for people outside of math/physics/engineering. Since it looks like I'll be in a department doing theoretical biology stuff (but likely not super focused on an industry area like genetics) I was wondering if anyone knew what the market was like for jobs at say national labs or private research into theory fields.

Given how tough everyone says the job market is, it seems like something that I have to consider going into a program. Since my undergrad is in engineering I always assumed I could do a PhD and at worst find a decent industry job, but since I've switched into bio I all of a sudden don't really know what the alternative route after grad school usually is.

There seems to be lots of investment bank and similar jobs. At least, before the recession.

I would hazard that someone with good computer/modeling skills and a PhD would be in demand in certain markets (Boston, DC, SanFran, maybe Chicago). Expertise working with and mining large data sets is always valuable.

Says the drunken master on a monday night.

[Wyman]

Originally Posted by zoltan

There seems to be lots of investment bank and similar jobs. At least, before the recession.

I would hazard that someone with good computer/modeling skills and a PhD would be in demand in certain markets (Boston, DC, SanFran, maybe Chicago). Expertise working with and mining large data sets is always valuable.

Says the drunken master on a monday night.

+1 (add NYC as well)

[chisness]

Originally Posted by Wyman

yes pretty much drawing dead

basically profs mentor students as a service to the community. As an undergrad you're not really expected to make any meaningful contribution to the field, certainly not any worth the time the prof needs to put into you. So the profs do it out of the goodness of their hearts... and because they can write it up when they get reviewed for promotion. They really have no incentive at all to work with a random outsider. Obviously you never know who will surprise you, but i wouldn't get my hopes up.

So how are you supposed to get research exp if you failed to do so in undergrad? Is the best idea to get into the best MS w/ thesis program possible and work super hard there?

[aditya]

Originally Posted by chisness

So how are you supposed to get research exp if you failed to do so in undergrad? Is the best idea to get into the best MS w/ thesis program possible and work super hard there?

Yeah this is the super annoying part. I didn't take high level math courses in undergrad so I'm even more screwed. It's kind of like a circular reference and you pretty much don't have much options other than working really really hard. But there are so many people with very very good good resumes who will be applying to the same Masters programs as you so it'll be tough (I obv don't know your academic record though.)

[Wyman]

Originally Posted by chisness

So how are you supposed to get research exp if you failed to do so in undergrad? Is the best idea to get into the best MS w/ thesis program possible and work super hard there?

People take all sorts of routes to grad school. I don't think research experience as an undergrad is a requirement, but obviously it helps tremendously, and more and more undergrads are doing it before grad school, so not doing so makes you less competitive.

MS theses are often expository (at least in math, but there are exceptions), so I would not think of an MS as filling a research gap. I would apply to a lot of PhD programs, but for each school, I'd call and talk to someone related to that department's program, mention that you decided late that you really wanted to do grad school, and that you're aware that you lack the research experience that some of the undergrads applying have. Ask what types of things you can do to make your application stronger, whether an MS would be an appropriate transition to graduate school, etc. It will vary program by program, but mostly it depends on how strong your application is if we ignore the lack of research. Even better would be to schedule a visit to discuss this in person, meet some faculty, etc. The admission decision is easier if they know you. If you know what you want to do, you can meet potential advisors, which can really help. Obviously pre-admission, you'd pay for this yourself, but it's probably considerably cheaper than a semester of MS.

Basically, everyone has a story, and departments realize that. They want to invest in people who they are confident will succeed in grad school. Research experience is just one way they gain confidence that you won't start working and realize you hate your field. But you know, plenty of grad students with research experience do that as it is, so I don't think it's a total dealbreaker to not have any.

[peterchi]

Originally Posted by Wyman

I don't think research experience as an undergrad is a requirement, but obviously it helps tremendously, and more and more undergrads are doing it before grad school, so not doing so makes you less competitive.

For Math and Stat this is probably true. I think for the pure sciences though you are F'ed without it. Not sure about Engineering or Comp Sci.

[Wyman]

Originally Posted by peterchi

For Math and Stat this is probably true. I think for the pure sciences though you are F'ed without it. Not sure about Engineering or Comp Sci.

Sorry yeah I guess I didn't appropriately put disclaimers. OTOH, if you're just missing like chem research then go work in a chem lab for a year or two. Much easier problem to solve than in math.

[zoltan]

I suggest we keep in mind that "research experience as an undergrad" may be too restrictive; "research experience" is likely sufficient. (e.g., in my own case, my undergrad activity was pretty moot by the time I started grad school 6 years later, but the 6 years I had in biotech kinda helped.)

Old man itt.

[furyshade]

lol, I just got mistakenly rejected from a school I'm interviewing at next week, called the program coordinated and she sounded super embarrassed.

[ajrenni]

Originally Posted by coffee_monster

+1 to this. BS/BA probably wouldn't get you in the door anywhere (unless extremely desperate), much less having taken a couple of classes and liking it.

Master's pretty much the minimum unless (as dalerobk said) you've got a lot of outside experience, and even then, who knows.

I taught English at community college (MWF) and a branch campus of the state university (TTh) with a M.A. in English and made like $10K/semester - no benefits. That was like 10 years ago, but I can't imagine it is much better now. I have friends with PhDs and multiple publications that did not even get an interview for a full-time gig this season.

[MelchyBeau]

I got my MS in mathematics and was able to do research with it. It was good enough to get published in a top tier journal. With it, I was able to make it into a decent PhD program. I had to do it this way due to me wanting to do math instead of physics (which is what my BS is in)

[furyshade]

Leaving for back to back interviews tomorrow afternoon, will TR when I'm back next weekend.