bobboufl11,

I'd say going to any sort of technical grad school because you're interested in teaching and aren't sure if high school would be sufficiently interesting is a bad plan. It's super common - I'd say loosely a combination of that and the kick the can down the road phenomenon you mentioned were elements of it for me - but it doesn't really lead to good outcomes. The problem is that you're getting into what is potentially a very long commitment with a) not much idea whether you'd even really like the outcome you're currently envisioning as ideal, and b) probably undermotivated to actually succeed on the level that is necessary to make attaining that ideal at all likely.

To do anything resembling well at grad school you really need to work hard. That is challenging to do if you aren't either strongly personally self-motivated (which usually means obsession with the material that it doesn't sound like you have) or willing to endure a real taskmaster type advisor. And at the end you're competing with many other similarly talented, hard-working people for a pretty small pool of jobs. This is why the generic advice of "don't go to grad school unless you have a damn good reason for doing so" is so solid, although I admit hard to take seriously at the time you're thinking about getting in.

The only problem I may run into is the University forcing me to graduate too early, and the sequential nature of these courses. so I cant take proof writing course till summer, cant take linear algebra until done with proof course, can't take advanced calc or abstract until done with linear algebra, and can't take analysis until done with BOTH advanced calcs. so I guess I could squeeze them all in and graduate when I expected to but I would have to take another summer and I may want to try to get an actuarial internship or something similar.

I already have around 80 credits and am paying in state tuition so they may want to try to make me finish as early as possible. In fact when being readmitted according to them I was "behind" on almost every major and sort of picked Econ by default because it's easy and interesting and one of the few I was allowed to pick.



Now that I am back in the system I may be able to change majors again. An extra year would be really great for me as I need as many credits as I can get to offset the

Since there has been a lot of job market discussion here, I was wondering what the outlooks for no academic jobs are for people outside of math/physics/engineering. Since it looks like I'll be in a department doing theoretical biology stuff (but likely not super focused on an industry area like genetics) I was wondering if anyone knew what the market was like for jobs at say national labs or private research into theory fields.

Given how tough everyone says the job market is, it seems like something that I have to consider going into a program. Since my undergrad is in engineering I always assumed I could do a PhD and at worst find a decent industry job, but since I've switched into bio I all of a sudden don't really know what the alternative route after grad school usually is.

It absolutely is something you should look into before going into a program. Really the earlier you start thinking about this stuff concretely the better. I'm loosely friends with a couple of neuroscience types who went on to work for pharmaceutical companies, although given your interests that seems a bit less likely.

Probably this is something that you'd like to ask various people in the field already, as they'll be in a better position to give you answers. See what previous students in that lab and related labs have gone on to do. Email some of those people, especially ones who are further afield than straight academics, and ask them some questions. My old roommate is of the opinion (and I think he's right) that people don't do this nearly often enough, as the worst case result tends to be that you get no response.

Research labs seem to be hiring still, fwiw. My friends seem to have no trouble getting _a_ job, but the academic job market is flooded. And getting a job that's desirable is the hard part.

There's no money in Biology; everyone's cured.

no jk -- what I actually was going to say was that there's still good money in genetics on the whole.

This is somewhat heresay but I recently heard that if you're looking for an academic job under this broad umbrella of genetics research, prospects are much better if you're willing to be in one of those "affiliate" departments (such as what you might find in the Medical School, or affiliated research center like UW's Fred Hutch), as opposed to the core department (whether it's Biology, Statistics, Computer Science, whatever).

so that doesn't really answer your question about private labs but just thought i'd throw that out there.

I remember my HS Econ teacher bragging about taking random BS community college classes and going for whatever the pass mark was just so he could get those pay bumps.

yeah i mean as with anything that's govt funded, it's supposed to be objective, but really it ends up rewarding the wrong things

I can't speak to industry as a whole, but I did work at NIH for ~4 years. The job market was pretty rough for biology in that we'd get many qualified applicants for each open position. As far as the first part of things go, I don't have much to say except that everybody else looks good on paper, so you need to sell yourself well in small number of pages (the grey-haired folk who read those things get really mad if you make them read too much, and for good reason). I think the applicant pool for PI spots was at least as competitive as academia, and likely more so (you get to do all the research you want and you don't have to waste time applying for grants).

After that, though, interview skills are devastatingly important. I saw several searches that failed because the applicants were just objectively bad at the interview process. You're not a grad student anymore, so tell a big story about why your stuff is important and how it fits into the general context of the field, rather than a small story about details. Have an explicit plan for future research. Be an expert on something. Don't pretend to be an expert on things where you aren't. Have explicit plans for collaborating. Tell a clear story with your talk. Absolutely do not go over time, and absolutely leave time for questions. Give several practice talks and have pre-prepared answers to tough questions. Don't forget that the social aspects are extremely important at this point as well. The guy who went to dinner and was completely incapable of making conversation? No job. Who wants to work with that guy? Everybody is scientifically qualified, so you need to make it obvious that people will enjoy interacting with you both socially and scientifically. Send a followup letter. Blah blah blah. I thought everybody knew all of that stuff, but I was way wrong.

peterchi- good call about "affiliate" departments. You may find research-oriented positions in places like engineering departments that you didn't expect. E.g. I do computational biophysics/molecular dynamics, and it turns out that lots of my peers are finding spots in chemical engineering departments, despite never having taken an engineering course.

Is it possible and if so how meaningful (compared to an MS thesis) of research experience can you get over a summer as a non-student (assume willing to do it for no pay)?

Yeah, I'm not sure I have that crazy sort of dedication. As well as teaching and being a professor, I do like the thought of being a math beast but am not sure I have that drive to work for so many years on it.

I think what I'll do is major in Econ+Stat, take the math major classes as my elective for Stat, and take as many more math classes as I can before I graduate without dying. Then maybe try to take like 1 math class a semester as a transient student while working(possible?). Along the way I'll ask professors about their research and keep an eye out for opportunities, and if I find anything really exciting from there consider shifting back to the grad school path. Or if being an actuary or w/e random stats/business job sucks the life out of me maybe I'll give grad school/HS teaching another thought

wrt the discussion on getting research experience by asking a professor, is that only applicable when you are a student at that specific university? I'm currently employed full-time but I would like to get some research experience to basically see if i find it interesting and also to learn obv. How likely are professors to accept research help if I'm only able to do it over the weekends? I assume I'm pretty much drawing dead here (although I have 3 big universities near me so maybe it increases a tiny bit.)

yes pretty much drawing dead

basically profs mentor students as a service to the community. As an undergrad you're not really expected to make any meaningful contribution to the field, certainly not any worth the time the prof needs to put into you. So the profs do it out of the goodness of their hearts... and because they can write it up when they get reviewed for promotion. They really have no incentive at all to work with a random outsider. Obviously you never know who will surprise you, but i wouldn't get my hopes up.

There seems to be lots of investment bank and similar jobs. At least, before the recession.

I would hazard that someone with good computer/modeling skills and a PhD would be in demand in certain markets (Boston, DC, SanFran, maybe Chicago). Expertise working with and mining large data sets is always valuable.

Says the drunken master on a monday night.

+1 (add NYC as well)

So how are you supposed to get research exp if you failed to do so in undergrad? Is the best idea to get into the best MS w/ thesis program possible and work super hard there?

Yeah this is the super annoying part. I didn't take high level math courses in undergrad so I'm even more screwed. It's kind of like a circular reference and you pretty much don't have much options other than working really really hard. But there are so many people with very very good good resumes who will be applying to the same Masters programs as you so it'll be tough (I obv don't know your academic record though.)

People take all sorts of routes to grad school. I don't think research experience as an undergrad is a requirement, but obviously it helps tremendously, and more and more undergrads are doing it before grad school, so not doing so makes you less competitive.

MS theses are often expository (at least in math, but there are exceptions), so I would not think of an MS as filling a research gap. I would apply to a lot of PhD programs, but for each school, I'd call and talk to someone related to that department's program, mention that you decided late that you really wanted to do grad school, and that you're aware that you lack the research experience that some of the undergrads applying have. Ask what types of things you can do to make your application stronger, whether an MS would be an appropriate transition to graduate school, etc. It will vary program by program, but mostly it depends on how strong your application is if we ignore the lack of research. Even better would be to schedule a visit to discuss this in person, meet some faculty, etc. The admission decision is easier if they know you. If you know what you want to do, you can meet potential advisors, which can really help. Obviously pre-admission, you'd pay for this yourself, but it's probably considerably cheaper than a semester of MS.

Basically, everyone has a story, and departments realize that. They want to invest in people who they are confident will succeed in grad school. Research experience is just one way they gain confidence that you won't start working and realize you hate your field. But you know, plenty of grad students with research experience do that as it is, so I don't think it's a total dealbreaker to not have any.

For Math and Stat this is probably true. I think for the pure sciences though you are F'ed without it. Not sure about Engineering or Comp Sci.

Sorry yeah I guess I didn't appropriately put disclaimers. OTOH, if you're just missing like chem research then go work in a chem lab for a year or two. Much easier problem to solve than in math.

I suggest we keep in mind that "research experience as an undergrad" may be too restrictive; "research experience" is likely sufficient. (e.g., in my own case, my undergrad activity was pretty moot by the time I started grad school 6 years later, but the 6 years I had in biotech kinda helped.)

Old man itt.

lol, I just got mistakenly rejected from a school I'm interviewing at next week, called the program coordinated and she sounded super embarrassed.

I taught English at community college (MWF) and a branch campus of the state university (TTh) with a M.A. in English and made like $10K/semester - no benefits. That was like 10 years ago, but I can't imagine it is much better now. I have friends with PhDs and multiple publications that did not even get an interview for a full-time gig this season.

I got my MS in mathematics and was able to do research with it. It was good enough to get published in a top tier journal. With it, I was able to make it into a decent PhD program. I had to do it this way due to me wanting to do math instead of physics (which is what my BS is in)

Leaving for back to back interviews tomorrow afternoon, will TR when I'm back next weekend.