Also, there's more to life than biglaw.

not with 150k debt...for a couple years at least

this

Well, my grades slipped after my first year due to utter laziness and lots of poker. I'm positive that I was top 2-3 students with a 3.95 gpa after my first year -- which is all that is important since BigLaw interviews are beginning of 2L year. I neither had diversity nor any connections, and neither did most of the others that landed BigLaw jobs from my school.

Secondly, I talked to numerous OCI interviewers who said that they were trying to recruit more of the top ten students from tier two schools and reduce their offers to the mediocre students from the top 10 schools for a variety of reasons. Not sure how true this is, but that what I was told.

Third, I've been out of the market for a couple years playing teh pokerz, so I have no idea how the market is affecting BigLaw, and don't really care, but I was just trying to give my personal experience to the above poster asking a question, since he asked for responses "ideally from people who have been through law school already." I went to a tier two school, did well at leadt when it mattered, and I had offers from 8 of the top ten BigLaw firms. I speculate that the market would not make THAT big of a difference now, but I'm not sure

People buy houses that cost >150k with salaries under what public interest lawyers make, and they do fine. And I'm not talking about the people who defaulted on their loans recently. Say you make 50k/yr out of law school... you should be fine.

Yeah, you'll be in debt for a while, but the sky is the limit for a good lawyer.

Karak/others,

we ****ing get it.

HEAR YE, HEAR YE, THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN BIG LAW!

happy now?

now can we get back to the people that were specifically asking about BigLaw?


fds,

"I speculate that the market would not make THAT big of a difference now, but I'm not sure "

Spend a few minutes on abovethelaw.com reading about shrinking summer classes and lawyer layoffs.

Also, I wasn't saying that your experience wasn't worth saying, just that having a 3.95 and being in the top 3 students at your school and then going on to talk about how its "very possible" is a bit of a stretch. Doable, certainly, but how many people at those schools want big law and are fighting for those top 10 spots. 30? 50? 75?

^^^ Well it sucks if the market really is that bad. Might be a blessing in disguise for some. Also, I should note that there were about 15 students that had ALL the OCI interviews, and I think all 15 ended up at BigLaw at least for the 2L summer. Obv Eyedea is saying that it isn't possible now, and I'd take his word since I haven't paid attention to anything BigLaw related in over a year.

NYC firms having receptions at their own offices w/no booze = obv sign of death of the billable hour and collapse of biglaw facade, imo.

From what I've heard around the halls, the 50-75th-ish percentile 2Ls are getting squeezed pretty hard at the "elite" schools, in addition to 3L offers being pretty much nonexistent and some even being rescinded.

All these people who keep saying, "well you'll be in a much better position next year" are full of crap. Interviews for that are in like 6 months, if anything I'd think the law economy would be even deeper in the crapper at that point.

Oh well, two more days of waiting then I'll take that public defender gig for this summer.

Jeez. I made one post about it and another post defending my position. Chill.

I just addressed you since you were most recent. Plenty of others do it. Apologies for aiming the hate at you.

It's just stupid to always have these exchanges

A: Question about big law firms.

B: Answer to A.

C: BIGLAW ISN'T EVERYTHING!


i know its not. and if someone asked about working in a DA's office or legal services, I would try and address those questions as well.

At the risk of beating down more on the subject I'll say I'm hearing more and more that the entire industry is moving away from the biglaw model (or that the biglaw industry is falling apart, bad economy or no bad economy). Is this true?

http://www.susmangodfrey.com/default.asp?id=200 ftw

Billable hour may finally be dying...some major firms are increasingly moving towards flat fees/contingent fees. I believe its the managing partner of Cravath who openly opposes the billable hour as a billing model.

I just hated BigLaw so damn much that I try to express it to students who aspire to it. I'm one of the few people on this forum that has been an associate at BigLaw and can actually talk about it. There are just so many law students who blindly aspire to BigLaw b/c it's "the best' and the most money. I think a lot of people ruin many years of their lives slavelaboring to a job they despise. I've already said in previous posts that I'm happy to answer any BigLaw related questions that I think I am qualified to answer together with whatever personal anectdotes that I can provide.

That said, Eyedey is right that prefacing every answer to legitmate BigLaw questions with "F%$# BigLaw" is definitely unnecessary, so I'll try to restrain my initial reaction and hopefully provide a helpful answer, if I can.

fds,

Did you work as a biglaw associate?

What did you think of biglaw?

Are there other options?

What was your quality of life?

Would you recommend it for a rising 2L?

Curious,

RM

P.S. Noah, Were you top 10%/Law Review?

fds i have a few questions if you don't mind re: biglaw and law in general

what do you say to people who claim they just want to work biglaw for a few years to pay off debt then get out? do they build up any good experience in those few years that will make them more marketable to a smaller firm?

what do you think of "midlaw?" ie pays a good salary (while not as good as biglaw) but doesn't demand the slave-like lifestyle and ridiculous hours. are these jobs available to grads or do you have to work a few years? does it even exist?

what do you do now after having worked at biglaw? if you don't mind me asking...

Nice level. Much appreciated

I completely understand the desire to work at biglaw for a few years to pay off the debt. The problem is that most people can eventually pay off that debt doing jobs that they enjoy and find interesting. Most of those same jobs, be it at a small shop or the DA's office, are the jobs that lead to the jobs that most lawyers find most enjoyable and that pay a good amount, namely partnerships at small or medium firms. I know the mountain of debt looks bad, but thinking long-term is more important imo.

I will say that other students desire BigLaw b/c of their ego. They want to work at the "best" and most prestigious firm. I fell into this category. I went to Rutgers on a full tuition scholarship, so I had little debt, but I wanted to prove that I could work at the top white shoe firms. This probably stems from my very blue collar upbring and the fact that I was at a tier 2 school and wanted to prove that I could do it. But I'd advise anybody who thought like I did to reconsider.

Now, BigLaw is a decent start if you can land a job and have no clue what you think you went to do. The nice thing about BigLaw is that you often can work your way down to something else. But be careful in that real small shops might pass on you because the skills used as BigLaw associate are completely different than those you would use at a small shop. You can often move to a mid-size firm with greater ease (or obv in house, to a bank, etc.)

I had meant to discuss mid-law earlier, and I think this is viable alternative to BigLaw. The key here imo is to research the quality of life of whatever firm you're looking at. There are many midlaw firms that require billables (or "encourage" billables) at or near those of biglaw but just payless because they're in a different market. Other firms really do offer less hours, a more collegial work environment, etc etc. So do your homework. I actually worked at a decent midlaw firm after my 1L year and thought it would be useless to work there as an associate since the billables were nearly the same and the pay difference w2as quite substantial.

I actually pay poker for a living now, am much happier, and have thuse far made more money. I occassionally take a case or two on the side.

Freakin awesome sir. Show me the way.

I prefer to think of it as "slavelaboring" to pay off my loans and get some experience. I'm fully prepared to hate it, leaving a glimmer of hope I might really enjoy it.

the problem is that your experience is virtually useless unless you stay for around 5 years. Your first years you're doing the most mundane work ever, which has little value in ANY other setting than a Biglaw firm. Paying off your loans is a more justifiable explanation than this.

Hi all. Been a lurker on 2+2 for some time - figured might as well start posting where I can add value. I was recently let go of a "top" (for what that's worth) NYC law firm. I spent 6+ years there. Went to Fordham Law. I'm happy to answer any questions you guys might have re: big law. Some basics to save some time - I was a corporate atty. Did mostly high yield corporate debt (M&A, LBOs, etc.). That market has dried up to say the least. I'm also biased in that being let go is the BEST thing that ever happened to me. Easy to get stuck in a paycheck rut living comfortably. Was able to save a lot over the years (also through trading / playing poker while at work) and looking forward to the next stage of my life (playing poker full time and trading).

Well if I can be of any help to anyone that would be great (and no I won't just say "stay away from Big Law" - though I might lean in that direction).

where were you in your class at fordham? i'm interested in corporate law as well. did you have any time of econ or accounting background either in u-grad or between u-grad and law school? did you find it intellectually stimulating at least, or did it feel like a grind?

Hi. I was in top 15% of my class. I did not make law review. I was chosen for what was regarded as the "next best" journal. Just FYI - SO not bragging, etc. w/that remark. Just showing you don't have to be part of law review to get chosen for a top tier firm.

Your 2nd question though is one that leads into a point that really helped me get a job and I think is invaluable for an undergrad - I was an accounting major undergrad. Upon graduation I took (and passed thankfully) all 4 parts of the CPA exam. I went to a second tier school undergrad. I feel the one thing that can set you apart when trying to get a big law job, especially in corporate practice area, is a business degree undergrad. It can put you ahead of someone who went to a better name school. I mean we all know a lit major can go to law school, and obviously be a great attorney, but for someone looking for a leg up I feel a business degree, especially in accounting, is very helpful. You can't begin to imagine the number of times the business guys (analysts and junior associates - most VP's and obviously directors / MDs know what they're doing) asked for input from the lawyers on business points. I would think that w/the thinning out of investment banks that lawyers who can provide guidance will be even more valuable. And trust me things like this are noticed - I was asked to go to ML but turned it down. I mean I'm sure I'd have been laid off either in banking or big law so just throwing it out there to show it's something both firm and client notice and value. Again, I had all this going for me and got tossed but it's a crazy time and I was being paid a high salary / approaching partnership so such is life. I also imagine w/less attorney's being hired you'll be thrown into the fire more quickly so any knowledge that sets you apart as a first year will be great (and understanding Proust prob won't get you far in big law - though I would say it's more important towards you as a person).

I feel the first 3-5 years are very intellectually stimulating. After that I feel like I hit a wall in terms of learning. I mean how many takeovers can you do. There are of course nuances from deal to deal, but by and large they're quite similar.

I think a good mindset is to enter big law w/initially having a plan to stay there from 2-4 years and then moving on unless you truly love it. Even a few years at big law opens so many doors for you (and allows you to save a good amount of $$$ so you can leave and pursue something you enjoy if big law isn't for you (or me)).

Good luck and hope the above is helpful !

people want to do big law? gross

biotech or pharmaceutical IP please one time