For all the ignorant rants about big starting stacks being most important, go play the The Giant turbofest w/ 20k chips and then play a standard $1500 w/ 7500 chips. U will then understand the importance of structure.

I've clearly been a lot more than you over the last few years.
Someone's been messing with the mix in your tanks.

I could be wrong but I think the first year I played a $1k at the WSOP, the first level was 25-25. That was pretty sweet. Granted 3k starting stack quickly felt shallow but the structure was pretty incredible overall.

I do think for the $1500's and especially Monster/Marathon type events, its a pretty great structure, although as a bad rec I should probably prefer something faster...

I played a few of those. 100+ BBs with 60 minute levels is pretty great.

http://www.wsop.com/2014/structuresh...-structure.pdf

I use Math Boy's patience factor calculator to compare tournaments each year before I head to Vegas. I find that it's a pretty good tool for comparing the relative "play value" of tournaments (i.e., how long do you have to actually play poker vs. getting into a shove fest). To give you an example of how much the structure for the WSOP Seniors' tournament has degraded in the last two years consider that the patience factor went from 30.51 in 2015 to 21.43 for the last two years. For comparison, this year's patience factor for the Wynn Senior was 36.70 and the Venetian Senior was 34.70. Even Aria's one-day Senior event this year had a higher patience factor (23.07) than the WSOP version.

Those figures mean f all to most people without a comparison with a tournament that you've played before.

The numbers are not meant to do anything other than provide one data point on how the WSOP's structures have changed dramatically since 2015 by comparing the change in the Senior's PF from 2015 to 2017. Get the template and figure out the PF yourself for tournaments you've played in yourself. Personally I do that for all the tournaments I'm considering playing before I head to Vegas so I can plan my schedule accordingly. I also look at some other metrics that provide an indication of a tournament's value. Do some searching on here and you'll find the tools to do it all yourself.

I disagree that the WSOP Senior Events have changed dramatically. They did worsen, but only a little. The change can be seen without any structure scoring system--you can just open each structure and see and easily understand the differences for yourselves:

2015 - http://www.wsop.com/2015/structuresh...-structure.pdf
2017 - http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresh...1352_15631.pdf

Same level length, same starting chips. 2017 started the ante earlier and skipped an early level(0-100-200).

Back to your scoring method, which I do not understand, but don't need to. Your method scored the 2015 structure almost 50% better than the 2017 structure (30.5 - 21.4). I contend that is not correct. The difference of removing 1 early level should not be that "dramatic".

Yeah I like the patience factor stuff as well. I forget which book I read it in, but it does seem like a useful backhand way to estimate the structure, although doesn't give any weight to field size. A few of the calcs I did for upcoming tourneys:

WSOP Monster Stack pf = 50.4 (balls deep)

WSOP $1500 NL Bounty (#50) pf = 27.0

Planet Hollywood Goliath $700 (#90) pf = 42.3

Wynn $400 pf = 20.3

WSOP Daily Deepstack 2pm $235 = 16.0

Those are all pretty good value. My normal local casino Saturday tourney is closer to 10-13.

I agree, Math Boy's calculator is the best way to rate events.
I got 19.7 for the new 1k at wsop down from 30.51.
for 1k+ I look for 30+ rating to be playable.

The problem with the 7500 starting stack (or lower) is not that it leads to a poor structure, overall. Indeed most of the WSOP events, even those with paltry starting stacks, have relatively good, or even great structures. The problem is that the 7500 starting stack is insufficient for modern poker. The game nowadays has much more variance. People need more starting chips to accommodate that variance in a reasonable way. If the structure devolves into a shove fest by level 10, that is obviously not good either. Luckily, there are simple ways a tourney can be structure to both provide a nice starting stack, offer plenty of play on day 1 of a multi-day tourney, and reach the money within a reasonable amount of time on day 2, or even at the end of day 1, depending on how many spots are paid.

The WSOP Monster Stack (15K starting chips) comes close to doing this (though I would prefer it was a tad faster on day 1). The Main Events and other signature events at the $500+ buy-in level at other venues throughout Vegas typically do a good job of this as well. Lots of starting chips, good structure, optimized time investment.

Comparing a WSOP $1500 event to a Main Event at another venue isn't really relevant though. Main events should have the best possible structures. What amount to side events shouldn't be expected to.

A Venetian $1100 (MSPT) event has 150 BB starting stack and 40 minute levels.
A WSOP $1500 event has 150BB starting stack and 1 hour levels.
That's more of a relevant comparison.

What do you think about WPT 500 at Aria - especially turbo flight with 15000 and 20 minute levels?

I like that event because of its unique playdown and payout structure. It's a nice change of pace from the other series going on through Vegas. I just wish they would be less conservative with the guarantee. They crush it every year and it's lower now than it was two years ago. All that being said, I wouldn't touch a turbo unless I had money to burn.

The venue itself is in a great hotel, but has left some things to be desired in previous years because they basically try to squeeze the poker tables in to the casino floor wherever they can. I'm guessing there are still some issues with smoke/noise, but I haven't heard as many complaints this year and am looking forward to finding out for myself in a couple weeks.

This is true. Starting chip is just one factor in a good structure. More likely the blind levels and blind amounts are more important. You could easily have an event with 2,000 in chips and 5-10 starting blinds be better than an event with 7,500 in chips and 25-50 starting blinds.

Because of my work turbo flight is the only option for me... I imagine the structure will be comparable with Colossus

Those are comparable events, but the Venetian costs 26% less and has ~ 1MM more in prize pool, so all else being equal, I would choose the Venetian MSPT.

And all I meant about mentioning the other events is that they manage to offer very good structures without requiring more than 3 days to complete.

Probably something to do with have 3 starting flights and re-entry....

Just played foxwoods summer event
500 buyin
100k starting stack
Structure is great lots of play from beginning to end
Wsop sucks pass that on
Anyone disagrees must be dum "like duh dum"

Your wrong about 150 bb way wrong
Horse event 1500
7500 chips
Blinds start at 50/100
(reality is everyone raises every hand so the reality is blinds are 200)
37.5 bb to start
Terrable structure

Also the stud games have antes right of gate every hand
So 7500 starting stack is never a fair stack for skill play
U dont get lucky its rebuy or out the door

Those structures sound terrable.


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ThAnkyou finally someone that gets it

Wsop will rape you

I totally agree with how you worded this
The variance is so true
And lack of chips means lack of playability skill.wise or.even luckwise

Dude, it's HORSE. They're limit games.
Plenty of play.

Get back in your box.