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Old 04-13-2017, 11:44 AM   #1
plog
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Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Every year I've been loading structure data from summer tournaments in Vegas to evaluate which ones are the best. I feed in various data from a structure sheet and generate its S-Points: the more S-Points the better (full explanation and formula on my site).

I just loaded WSOP and Aria and configured my site to show data for 2017:

http://www.rainbowspuppiessunshine.c...ournaments.php

Use the Tournament Filter in the left column to apply criteria (price range, dates, specific games, etc.). Click the Calculator link at the top to walk through my analysis method.

When I get more structures I will load the Comparisons page which shows the best structures in 2017 in various price ranges and shows changes from last year's tournaments.
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:20 PM   #2
deadlysyns
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

does this apply to limit holdem or pot limit games like plo/plo8?
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:44 PM   #3
plog
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Yes. I've fed all Omaha and Hold'em data into my database. In the criteria section you can filter by limit (Limit, Pot, No) and game (Omaha, Hold'em).
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:14 PM   #4
shaggylowball1
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Plog if you need help plugging all the structures in or collecting the data I would be willing todo that. Will be using this a lot. I have 6 horses in Vegas this summer and could make a schedule based on this information


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Old 04-13-2017, 03:45 PM   #5
CosmicCharlie
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

This is very cool. Thank you
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:57 PM   #6
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Thanks for doing this.

You have the WSOP $3K six handed as June 4th, it is June 14th, right?
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:58 PM   #7
plog
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Quote:
You have the WSOP $3K six handed as June 4th, it is June 14th, right?
Fixed that and thanks. If anyone sees anything else let me know. Work's slow this time of year, so no need for help, but thank you.

Also, uploaded Wynn structures.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:27 PM   #8
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by plog View Post
If anyone sees anything else let me know.
For WSOP Event #61, $3333 online tourney, the spreadsheet shows a vig of 100% and S-Points at 60.

Was an allowance made for 20 minute levels online compared to level length at a live tourney?

WSOP structure sheet does not show breakdown of fees and gratuity. Any info on this?
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:39 PM   #9
AzOther1
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by patstap2 View Post
WSOP structure sheet does not show breakdown of fees and gratuity. Any info on this?
For example, 7% 'fee' + 3% dealer appreciation (tournament dealers and staff) For event #23, the Marathon, found on the structure sheet. (very small print at the very bottom of the single page printout)
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:54 PM   #10
plog
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by patstap2 View Post
For WSOP Event #61, $3333 online tourney, the spreadsheet shows a vig of 100% and S-Points at 60.?
All other WSOP structure sheets have a fee breakdown in the bottom right corner of the structure sheets (http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresh...1352_15637.pdf).

Event #61 does not. Since it had a structure I included it in my site, but to account for no fee breakdown I set it to 100% just so people would look at it funny. If I ever get that info I will update it.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:15 PM   #11
mfriendl
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Thanks for making this. Any chance you are still slow at work and feel like putting the Venetian tourneys on there too?
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:59 PM   #12
plog
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Quote:
Thanks for making this. Any chance you are still slow at work and feel like putting the Venetian tourneys on there too?
As soon as they (and Planet Hollywood, and Binions, and Golden Nugget) want to post their structures I can get my site updated within a few hours. The casinos are holding up my site, not me.
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Old 04-18-2017, 03:52 PM   #13
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by plog View Post
Fixed that and thanks. If anyone sees anything else let me know. Work's slow this time of year, so no need for help, but thank you.

Also, uploaded Wynn structures.
Is the $1500 PLO event #41 actually 10% rake?
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Old 04-18-2017, 03:53 PM   #14
CosmicCharlie
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

What is the best options for NL Holdem tournaments in the 300-500 dollar buy in range?
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:32 PM   #15
plog
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

The WSOP #41 structure sheet (http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresh...1352_15641.pdf) says 10% of the buy-in is not going to the prize pool.

Right now, with only 3 casinos releasing structures, The Wynn $400 has a slight edge over the Aria $400 in that price range. They have the same S-Points (61) and the Wynn takes a little bit less off the top (13.5% to 15%).
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:49 PM   #16
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by CosmicCharlie View Post
What is the best options for NL Holdem tournaments in the 300-500 dollar buy in range?
It depends on a lot factors, most of which are personal preference, so you really have to decide for yourself. Plog's site rates tournaments according to their structure. You can use it to see which tournaments in whatever price range have the "best" structure. Of course, the "best" structure doesn't necessarily fit everyone's schedule or playing preferences. For instance, turbos will be rated quite low, relatively speaking. And some of the best structured NLH tournaments are not at all rec-friendly with the way they are scheduled.

In any case, you have lots of options throughout the WSOP timeframe at <= $500, all around the same structure quality. If you bump up to $600, there are a few additional tourneys that have somewhat "better" structure.
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:59 AM   #17
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by akashenk View Post
It depends on a lot factors, most of which are personal preference, so you really have to decide for yourself. Plog's site rates tournaments according to their structure. You can use it to see which tournaments in whatever price range have the "best" structure. Of course, the "best" structure doesn't necessarily fit everyone's schedule or playing preferences. For instance, turbos will be rated quite low, relatively speaking. And some of the best structured NLH tournaments are not at all rec-friendly with the way they are scheduled.

In any case, you have lots of options throughout the WSOP timeframe at <= $500, all around the same structure quality. If you bump up to $600, there are a few additional tourneys that have somewhat "better" structure.
Another factor is transportation cost and it's affect on vig.

Say you are staying at the Rio and they are offering a $500 tourney with a vig of 10%. Say a similar tourney is being held, at the same time, at the Wynn with a vig of 5%. Wynn looks much better.

But, a round trip cab ride to the Wynn costs about $30 and should be factored into your cost to play, making that 5% vig at the Wynn become 10.4%

Because I'm cabbing to the Rio from downtown for the Crazy 8 tourney, my vig jumps from 10% to 15.6%.

(not to mention a prorated cost of room, air fare, etc. for my trip)

Last edited by patstap2; 04-19-2017 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:38 AM   #18
Stew2
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by patstap2 View Post
Another factor is transportation cost and it's affect on vig.

Say you are staying at the Rio and they are offering a $500 tourney with a vig of 10%. Say a similar tourney is being held, at the same time, at the Wynn with a vig of 5%. Wynn looks much better.

But, a round trip cab ride to the Wynn costs about $30 and should be factored into your cost to play, making that 5% vig at the Wynn become 10.4%

Because I'm cabbing to the Rio from downtown for the Crazy 8 tourney, my vig jumps from 10% to 15.6%.

(not to mention a prorated cost of room, air fare, etc. for my trip)
I highly recommend you Uber/Lyft as opposed to a cab, will cut your cost in half.

Also, I believe I am in town the same dates as you (I'm staying at the Golden Gate)...not being nosey, but curious as to your event itinerary. Also, if I recall correctly you may have been deciding between the 888 event and colossus like I was. What swayed your decision?
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:37 PM   #19
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

One minor nit to pick, I think the rakes should be uniform across identical buyin events for all WSOP events (e.g., all $10k's are 6%, all $1500's are 10%). Those are laid out at the bottom of the WSOP pdf schedule. http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/schedules/schedule_1352.pdf

And a quick comment, for what it's worth. I think this is a useful analytical tool, but I hope people will take it with a grain of salt rather than thinking a marginal difference of a couple "S-points" is reason enough to play one event over another. Factors such as your table draw will be much more significant than event structure. It's also worth noting that the score is agnostic as to buy-in amount, prizepool and rake (although rake is displayed) and really just favors length of play above all else. I understand the theory that a more gradual, deeper structure allows skill to triumph over variance more than a turbo. But I could theoretically run a $200 tournament with the same S-points as the Main Event simply by using the ME structure and starting stack. But would it really be worth your while to play a $200 tourney with 120-minute levels that starts 300BBs deep? At some point it would be a better use of a skilled player's time to play a $1-2 cash game than to grind through a two-day low-buyin tournament with a modest prizepool.

That's not to criticize the effort. There's clearly a material difference in the play in a tourney with a 100 score versus a 50, so this is helpful research. But it's just to say that this is only one data point to consider. As for me, if I'm considering two tournaments with identical buyins, I'll think about how strong I think the field will be at the two venues, the rake, the potential for a big payday from a large prize pool, convenience, etc. It's hard for me to imagine all those factors being so equal between two events that I would look to a few S-points of difference to make the decision. But if it works for other people, that's valuable.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:37 PM   #20
patstap2
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew2 View Post
I highly recommend you Uber/Lyft as opposed to a cab, will cut your cost in half.

Also, I believe I am in town the same dates as you (I'm staying at the Golden Gate)...not being nosey, but curious as to your event itinerary. Also, if I recall correctly you may have been deciding between the 888 event and colossus like I was. What swayed your decision?
Appreciate the uber tip but I travel with an electric scooter and require a handicapped accessible vehicle. The cab companies have such vehicles but I'll have to research their availability thru uber or lyft.

I arrive on Monday June 26th and leave on July 6th. Will be playing a tournament each day at the Nugget or Binion's. Plan on playing Flight C of the Crazy 8 at 10am on July 2nd.

I played the Colossus last year (1773rd for $1163) so thought I'd try the Crazy 8 this year. A little better structure and comfort of playing 8 handed. My first choice would have been the weekend with the Seniors and Super Seniors but I have a wedding to attend that weekend.

Last edited by patstap2; 04-19-2017 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:29 PM   #21
akashenk
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by slcpunk View Post
One minor nit to pick, I think the rakes should be uniform across identical buyin events for all WSOP events (e.g., all $10k's are 6%, all $1500's are 10%). Those are laid out at the bottom of the WSOP pdf schedule. http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/schedules/schedule_1352.pdf

And a quick comment, for what it's worth. I think this is a useful analytical tool, but I hope people will take it with a grain of salt rather than thinking a marginal difference of a couple "S-points" is reason enough to play one event over another. Factors such as your table draw will be much more significant than event structure. It's also worth noting that the score is agnostic as to buy-in amount, prizepool and rake (although rake is displayed) and really just favors length of play above all else. I understand the theory that a more gradual, deeper structure allows skill to triumph over variance more than a turbo. But I could theoretically run a $200 tournament with the same S-points as the Main Event simply by using the ME structure and starting stack. But would it really be worth your while to play a $200 tourney with 120-minute levels that starts 300BBs deep? At some point it would be a better use of a skilled player's time to play a $1-2 cash game than to grind through a two-day low-buyin tournament with a modest prizepool.

That's not to criticize the effort. There's clearly a material difference in the play in a tourney with a 100 score versus a 50, so this is helpful research. But it's just to say that this is only one data point to consider. As for me, if I'm considering two tournaments with identical buyins, I'll think about how strong I think the field will be at the two venues, the rake, the potential for a big payday from a large prize pool, convenience, etc. It's hard for me to imagine all those factors being so equal between two events that I would look to a few S-points of difference to make the decision. But if it works for other people, that's valuable.
I agree with the general premise and I would only add that some tournaments are actually too well structured. I believe the Wsop Monster Stack to be such a structure. Anyhow, like you said, the analysis here is still valuable, if only to demonstrate how relatively bad some structures are.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:39 PM   #22
Stew2
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by patstap2 View Post
Appreciate the uber tip but I travel with an electric scooter and require a handicapped accessible vehicle. The cab companies have such vehicles but I'll have to research their availability thru uber or lyft.

I arrive on Monday June 26th and leave on July 6th. Will be playing a tournament each day at the Nugget or Binion's. Plan on playing Flight C of the Crazy 8 at 10am on July 2nd.

I played the Colossus last year (1773rd for $1163) so thought I'd try the Crazy 8 this year. A little better structure and comfort of playing 8 handed. My first choice would have been the weekend with the Seniors and Super Seniors but I have a wedding to attend that weekend.
Ah, that makes sense. I didn't think about that and should have.

It took me a long time to decide between the Colossus and 888 and to help keep this somewhat on topic, I went with 888 due to the extra starting chips (8000 as compared to 5000), which makes the structure slightly "better". I would have preferred to go the weekend of the Monster Stack or Milly Maker, but neither of those work for me (this is my first WSOP trip). Finally, I think the ultimate decision maker for me was being able to play the Golden Nugget 500K guarantee the same weekend as compared to a 100K guaranteee event the Colossus weekend. I'm coming in Thursday, 6/29, playing the GN event Friday, 888 Saturday and then if I don't advance to Day 2 of the Nugget event I'll play either a DSE event at the Venetian on Sunday or 20K a day at Planet Hollywood and then DeepStacks at the Rio if I don't advance in the 888. Leaving on July 5th, staying at the Golden Gate.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:00 PM   #23
BoDiddleyMacau
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Originally Posted by Stew2 View Post
... event I'll play either a DSE event at the Venetian on Sunday or 20K a day at Planet Hollywood and then DeepStacks at the Rio if I don't advance in the 888. Leaving on July 5th, staying at the Golden Gate.
Wynn $400 50k if you're looking for a single day on 7/2.
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:53 PM   #24
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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Wynn $400 50k if you're looking for a single day on 7/2.
Thank you...I will keep that one in mind. I need to look at the structures of Wynn vs PH. But, I'd probably play a one day on Sunday 07/02 only if I advanced in the 888. I kinda dismissed the Wynn b/c I have never enjoyed playing tournaments there...but it has been awhile
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:02 AM   #25
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Re: Structure Analysis - Vegas 2017

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It took me a long time to decide between the Colossus and 888 ...
Sent you a PM.
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