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Old 03-21-2017, 10:49 AM   #51
AllInNTheDark
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by Pokerella View Post
Even with a guaranteed Day 2 money in your event and even if you bump up your Day 2 to noon, the easiest solution for us to not risk missing the WSOP PLO8 is to just go play the Aria one-day $465 PLO8. Maybe if that Aria event didn't exist I would've had to re-evaluate...
I think there are just too many conflicts with the PLO/PLO8:

6/21- Day 1 of WSOP 1.5k PLO and a 570 PLO @ GN
6/22- Aria 465 PLO8
6/23- Day 1 of WSOP 1.5k PLO8

That's a lot of potential runners missing.

Quote:
I know it'll be tough to move a 2 starting flight, 2-day event but if you want to reconsider, 6/14, 6/18, and 6/20 are the three dates still empty of PLO or PLO8 events in Las Vegas, if you can work any magic around those dates (though be warned of the WSOP 1500 PLO on the 21st). And 6/17 if you're like me and are too lazy to go downtown to Binion's.

As AllInTheDark suggested, I'd also strongly recommend 6/17-6/19 or 6/18-6/20 (but please not 6/19-6/21 because of the WSOP 1500 PLO). If you don't have the room/consecutive dates available, it's also not out of the question to make it a one starting flight, two day event.... (There is a Venetian $600 PLO Bounty on the 19th which is why I recommend 6/17-6/19 over 6/18-6/20).
I'm not against a single starting flight (that might open up 6/14 & 15, e.g.), although that would also likely result in a smaller GTD.

I don't think the DSE 600 PLO Bounty is that bad of a conflict, esp. if PH goes with early start times on those days. It's also a 2 day MTT, but has only 50k GTD. There would be some conflict for either 6/17-19 or 6/18-20:

6/17- Day 2 of WSOP 1.5k Mixed O8, day 2 of Bin 585 PLO, 360 Bin PLO
6/18- GN 360 FLO8 (rather minor)
6/19- Day 1 of DSE 600 PLO Bounty
6/20- Day 2 of DSE 600 PLO Bounty

I recommended 6/18-20 as more ideal, because it seems like less of a conflict IMO. O8 players could play FLO8 @ GN on 6/18, then play a day 1 flight of PLO/PLO8 on 6/19, with no O8 conflicts on day 2. PLO players could play a day 1 flight of PLO/PLO8 on 6/18. PH would still have the much higher GTD (and superior structure) than DSE 600 PLO Bounty.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:11 PM   #52
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by jmmj05 View Post
Thanks for the Dealer's Choice events. Will they have the same game choices as the WSOP event?
think so, I'm open to suggestions!
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:24 PM   #53
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by ZY725 View Post
I just have to echo the comments of akashenko.

You do a great job of listening to player feedback and adjusting and we all appreciate that... that being said the schedule has some big overlap issues with the Venetian and I feel it needs to be adjusted.

The Milly overlapping w Venetian MSPT 2.5 Milly is just a problem waiting to happen. Like was said at best it will split the player pool between the both and at worst this will be a dud. Def understand keeping the Colossus crowd around, but moving it a few days so it is possible to play both would go a long way. Same with several other overlapping events that he mentioned in his post, some of the 500ks, the main vs the 3500 3M etc.

Bc of "seniority" in a sense here is a heriarchy on Vegas poker tournaments for the summer. WSOP reveals their schedule, then Venetian looks at it and makes theirs accordingly and releases theirs.... and then you should look at both and make yours accordingly and release. This isn't saying the PH series is inferior, just it's a newer series so has to let the more experienced tourneys have first crack and schedule around them. I would like to see you guys do well and crush- but adjusting some dates on some of the big guarantees, taking both WSOP and Venetian schedules into considering would help a great deal imo. Just my 2 cents.
This is great feedback and I'm very appreciative of the time you (and everyone else) puts into posts like this. Some aspects I can comment on, and some I can't / won't. I'm sure you understand that. Everything revolves around WSOP and we do our best to be a supplement / compliment to the WSOP events. Some spots we will mirror the WSOP schedule and some spots we will go our own way with the goal being not to be a distraction to the WSOP events. Once the WSOP schedule comes out we (as well as other properties) look for sweet spots to offer feature events. It's inevitable that there will be overlap with competing properties, it's unavoidable. As far as the GOLIATH Milly goes this is the third year we've offered the event in same time frame (each year getting 2300 plus players) and this year we've made enhancements to the starting chips and blind levels while not altering our betting structure and not raising the rake. We certainly hope that the players see the value in this when making a decision as to which event to play. Same goes for our other feature events this summer. We worked extremely hard on this schedule and hope we see the same support as previous years.

As far as the timing of announcing our event...the main reason for the delay was that we had some logistical things to work out that impacts the number of tables I will have available. There will be weeks in which we have nearly 130 tables available and other weeks 70 or so tables available. Once that got ironed out we were able to hit the gas and get our schedule released.

I hope this perspective gives a better understanding of how the GOLIATH schedule is created each year!
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:26 PM   #54
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Maybe you could do a promotion for the PLO high roller where whatever the prizepool is this year will be the guarantee next year, sort of like the progressive guarantee promotion that certain poker sites have done to both boost hype on an event and set a realistic guarantee when they themselves are unsure what the actual turnout will be.
hmm, very interesting. not sure I can get this first year out of the shoot but maybe down the road. What I can promise is an aggressive guarantee next year if the event is successful this year.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:28 PM   #55
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by carlo View Post
Chris, perhaps accelerating the structure for the 30 minute nlh tourneys which, if memory serves me right, lasted into the AM last year.

Planing for a 10-11 hour tourney would be appreciated, at least on this end. Thanx.
yes, the one day events are a marathon to say the least. double edged sword here...we were going to remove a couple of levels last year and I got pretty beat up on Two Plus Two so we made the decision to keep the same deep - long structure as 2015. I'm always open to feedback though, let's see if anyone else jumps in!
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:38 PM   #56
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by AllInNTheDark View Post
I think there are just too many conflicts with the PLO/PLO8:

6/21- Day 1 of WSOP 1.5k PLO and a 570 PLO @ GN
6/22- Aria 465 PLO8
6/23- Day 1 of WSOP 1.5k PLO8

That's a lot of potential runners missing.



I'm not against a single starting flight (that might open up 6/14 & 15, e.g.), although that would also likely result in a smaller GTD.

I don't think the DSE 600 PLO Bounty is that bad of a conflict, esp. if PH goes with early start times on those days. It's also a 2 day MTT, but has only 50k GTD. There would be some conflict for either 6/17-19 or 6/18-20:

6/17- Day 2 of WSOP 1.5k Mixed O8, day 2 of Bin 585 PLO, 360 Bin PLO
6/18- GN 360 FLO8 (rather minor)
6/19- Day 1 of DSE 600 PLO Bounty
6/20- Day 2 of DSE 600 PLO Bounty

I recommended 6/18-20 as more ideal, because it seems like less of a conflict IMO. O8 players could play FLO8 @ GN on 6/18, then play a day 1 flight of PLO/PLO8 on 6/19, with no O8 conflicts on day 2. PLO players could play a day 1 flight of PLO/PLO8 on 6/18. PH would still have the much higher GTD (and superior structure) than DSE 600 PLO Bounty.
What if the PLO / PLO8 was just a one day event on 6/22?
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:49 PM   #57
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
think so, I'm open to suggestions!
Actually your scheduling is really good for the Dealers Choice events, very "player friendly".
I think it's great to offer all the games you can find at the WSOP or, it you believe it's too complicated for dealers, to offer at least 10 games (HORSE games + NLH + PLO + 2-7 Triple Draw + 2-7 Single Draw + Badugi).
I understand the 130$ event is a turbo one but I expect the 250$ to have a better structure.
Thanks again for all the non-NLH events you put on the schedule, poker is much more than that!
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:52 PM   #58
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
What if the PLO / PLO8 was just a one day event on 6/22?
We're all actually trying to convince you to change the date of this event because it sounds great- a 2 starting flight, 2 day, $100k guarantee, "Ultimate Goliath Stack" PLO/PLO8 event- we love it. Please don't downgrade it to some one-day warmup event competing with Aria- it's just going to hurt both of you guys. You can really make this event great if you time it right.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:56 PM   #59
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
yes, the one day events are a marathon to say the least. double edged sword here...we were going to remove a couple of levels last year and I got pretty beat up on Two Plus Two so we made the decision to keep the same deep - long structure as 2015. I'm always open to feedback though, let's see if anyone else jumps in!
I played in some 180$ NLH events last year, they had great fields (sometimes over 600 players!) and good structures but, of course, it can be tricky to make them finish within one day.
I don't know if it's possible but I would recommend playing 25-minute levels until the bubble, and 40-minute levels afterwards.
From my experience the length of the tournament would be roughly the same, but you reach the bubble one hour earlier and you give more play for the late stages. Still a marathon but only for the last 2/3 tables...
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:02 PM   #60
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
Some spots we will mirror the WSOP schedule and some spots we will go our own way with the goal being not to be a distraction to the WSOP events. Once the WSOP schedule comes out we (as well as other properties) look for sweet spots to offer feature events. It's inevitable that there will be overlap with competing properties, it's unavoidable.
Trust us...the hard work that goes into planning is certainly appreciated. The concern comes when there are multiples of the same event on the same date. It sucks as a player to have to throw darts to figure out which of three casinos will be the best bet since they all have a particular event on the same day.

Overlap with competing properties in that manner is something that could seemingly be avoided through some schedule shifting. As a player who prefers non-NLH events, it is frustrating to see all of the properties be willing to put out the non-NLH games but then have to choose between two or three places running it on the same date. It makes it too easy for the harm in turnout to then be used as a basis in years to come that the 'players don't support XYZ game.'
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:45 PM   #61
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
think so, I'm open to suggestions!
It was great to have all the games available last year. By memory and by checking last year's thread, the dealers did a very good job last year. I really like the fact that we can play these games for not so big a buy-in.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:22 PM   #62
AllInNTheDark
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
What if the PLO / PLO8 was just a one day event on 6/22?
If you reduce it to a one day event, then I think 6/14, 6/20, or 6/18 would probably have less conflict.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:24 PM   #63
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by michelle227 View Post
Trust us...the hard work that goes into planning is certainly appreciated. The concern comes when there are multiples of the same event on the same date. It sucks as a player to have to throw darts to figure out which of three casinos will be the best bet since they all have a particular event on the same day.

Overlap with competing properties in that manner is something that could seemingly be avoided through some schedule shifting. As a player who prefers non-NLH events, it is frustrating to see all of the properties be willing to put out the non-NLH games but then have to choose between two or three places running it on the same date. It makes it too easy for the harm in turnout to then be used as a basis in years to come that the 'players don't support XYZ game.'
Very good point, As a limit player I'm having to sacrifice some events because of double scheduling, example:
On June 6 there are 2 HORSE events, at Aria and PH, although I prefer to play at PH but will be playing the Aria's ( the buy-in is the deciding factor)
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:14 PM   #64
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

I think it solves the issue for me with a 12 pm restart wsop event is 3pm and has lots of late reg ur event would be super deep by then. If there is any way to have it on 17/18/19 or 18/19/20 tho that would be even better as those dates work much better as mentioned by other posters.

I do strongly suggest keeping it as a plo and plo8 mix with 2 starting days tho, its just a matter of wheather to switch the restart or if u can find a switch to one of the sets of dates listed.
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:35 PM   #65
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

Chris,

Congrats on putting out what looks to be a great schedule!!

I know this is difficult because of limited space....but could you put one or two 6-max events on the table? Even just changing one of the dailies to six-handed would be perfet.

PH has been consistent at providing this...great for those who love short-handed play but can't afford the $1500+ buyins offered at WSOP. No other properties offer it.

Again, completely understand if it can't happen. Just wanted to throw it out there!!

Thanks for always listening to the players.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:08 PM   #66
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
This is great feedback and I'm very appreciative of the time you (and everyone else) puts into posts like this. Some aspects I can comment on, and some I can't / won't. I'm sure you understand that. Everything revolves around WSOP and we do our best to be a supplement / compliment to the WSOP events. Some spots we will mirror the WSOP schedule and some spots we will go our own way with the goal being not to be a distraction to the WSOP events. Once the WSOP schedule comes out we (as well as other properties) look for sweet spots to offer feature events. It's inevitable that there will be overlap with competing properties, it's unavoidable.
It was avoidable last year and the year before.

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
As far as the GOLIATH Milly goes this is the third year we've offered the event in same time frame (each year getting 2300 plus players) and this year we've made enhancements to the starting chips and blind levels while not altering our betting structure and not raising the rake.
Its not the same timeframe... day 2 of your Milly event is two days later this year. And now you're going head to head against an event that will have at least 2x if not more the prizepool as yours. Doesn't seem like a prudent decision.

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
We certainly hope that the players see the value in this when making a decision as to which event to play. Same goes for our other feature events this summer. We worked extremely hard on this schedule and hope we see the same support as previous years.
Why rely on hope? If players have to choose based on budget or whatever, then there's nothing you can do about that. But why make them have to choose on other factors too? You're going to lose out on some percentage of those choices and whatever you lose will be completely avoidable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
As far as the timing of announcing our event...the main reason for the delay was that we had some logistical things to work out that impacts the number of tables I will have available. There will be weeks in which we have nearly 130 tables available and other weeks 70 or so tables available. Once that got ironed out we were able to hit the gas and get our schedule released.

I hope this perspective gives a better understanding of how the GOLIATH schedule is created each year!
The delay in schedule release is lamentable, but understandable. But if you're going to release after other venues, you ought to take their schedules into account. You are, of course, under no obligation to try an make a schedule which will maximize attendance. But it seems odd you will purposefully make changes which seem likely to limit attendance compared to years past, and certainly compared to what they might be this year if you weren't going head to head with another venue.

The three events I mentioned in my original post on this topic are the ones I think will be hurt by your scheduling decisions. I think you can fix them (at least in the case of the Milly and Main Event) by moving them by a day. I hope you do.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:51 AM   #67
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

Chris - is there a mistake on the following Ultimate Goliath Stack restart?

It states "Restart 6/20 @2pm, Final Day 6/21 @2pm" however 6/20 @11am is Flight D so surely that can't be correct?
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:32 PM   #68
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by Pokerella View Post
We're all actually trying to convince you to change the date of this event because it sounds great- a 2 starting flight, 2 day, $100k guarantee, "Ultimate Goliath Stack" PLO/PLO8 event- we love it. Please don't downgrade it to some one-day warmup event competing with Aria- it's just going to hurt both of you guys. You can really make this event great if you time it right.
Thanks again for this feedback. Thoughts on a two day event with one or possibly two flights 6/17?
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:33 PM   #69
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by Hendricks View Post
Chris - is there a mistake on the following Ultimate Goliath Stack restart?

It states "Restart 6/20 @2pm, Final Day 6/21 @2pm" however 6/20 @11am is Flight D so surely that can't be correct?
yes, we had a few errors. Once I get a couple of the events being discussed worked out a clean copy will be sent out. Thanks for taking a close look and bringing this to our attention!
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:20 PM   #70
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

Chris,

BTW, regardless of my suggested changes, I thought the idea was you would release a preliminary schedule, obtain feedback, make whatever changes you wanted and then have a final one. It seems that's the process you are following, however nowhere on your schedule pdf does it seem to indicate that this is a preliminary schedule and is subject to likely change. In fact, the filename itself has the word "Final" in it. I'm sure that pdf has been disseminated to lots of folks who don't necessarily follow this thread or 2+2 at all. They will be in for surprises which were totally unnecessary, and you will once again faced with angry patrons who are unappreciative of your evolving scheduling practices.
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Old 03-22-2017, 02:53 PM   #71
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
Thanks again for this feedback. Thoughts on a two day event with one or possibly two flights 6/17?
Sounds great to me. I would recommend two starting flights for those that make Day 2 of the WSOP PLO8/O8/BigO, those that bust from your first starting flight, and/or those that bust from the $365 PLO at Binion's.

You can get feedback from others on how much the conflict with the $365 PLO at Binion's will hurt but like I said, I personally wasn't planning on going downtown for a $365 anyways...
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Old 03-22-2017, 03:47 PM   #72
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by Pokerella View Post
Sounds great to me. I would recommend two starting flights for those that make Day 2 of the WSOP PLO8/O8/BigO, those that bust from your first starting flight, and/or those that bust from the $365 PLO at Binion's.

You can get feedback from others on how much the conflict with the $365 PLO at Binion's will hurt but like I said, I personally wasn't planning on going downtown for a $365 anyways...
Sounds perfect Chris .
Couldn't put it better than comments above .
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Old 03-22-2017, 04:32 PM   #73
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by TDChrisG View Post
Thanks again for this feedback. Thoughts on a two day event with one or possibly two flights 6/17?
Sounds a lot better. Would recommend (one of) the 6/17 flight(s) to be a late start, to capture bust outs from Binion's 365 PLO (11 am), day 2 of Binion's 585 PLO (2 pm), and day 2 of WSOP 1.5k Mixed O8 (2 pm).
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:26 AM   #74
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

any news on how long late reg will last? specifically for the 1k plo?
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:58 PM   #75
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Re: Phamous Poker Series GOLIATH 2017

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Originally Posted by Pokerella View Post
Sounds great to me. I would recommend two starting flights for those that make Day 2 of the WSOP PLO8/O8/BigO, those that bust from your first starting flight, and/or those that bust from the $365 PLO at Binion's.

You can get feedback from others on how much the conflict with the $365 PLO at Binion's will hurt but like I said, I personally wasn't planning on going downtown for a $365 anyways...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllInNTheDark View Post
Sounds a lot better. Would recommend (one of) the 6/17 flight(s) to be a late start, to capture bust outs from Binion's 365 PLO (11 am), day 2 of Binion's 585 PLO (2 pm), and day 2 of WSOP 1.5k Mixed O8 (2 pm).
Hey Chris.

I would also like to recommend scheduling the PLO/PLO8 mix on the 17th if possible. If you're not able to have 2 flights, it might be better to have a later start time to catch some of the bust outs from other PLO/PLO8/O8 mix tournaments as others have mentioned.

As someone that seeks to play non-NLHE MTTs, I'm grateful for the PLO, PLO8, and mixed game tournaments in the schedule (and for previous schedules like the PLO HU tournament in 2016).
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