This was originally posted in NVG but I guess a mod thought it was not appropriate for that sub-forum and buried it in the NVG low content thread.

Hopefully this sub-forum is better suited for it.

I recently returned from the native American Meskwaki casino in Tama, Iowa where I played in an MSPT event. In my view, they are overcharging the players in some of their events.

They had several tournaments they advertised as "$65 Multi-Table SUPER Satellite - 20% advance to $250 Qualifiers".

They also had qualifiers that were advertised as "$220+30+10 MSPT Main Event Qualifier - 20% advance".

The receipt for the $250 qualifiers showed:

Buy In - $220
Player Fee - $0
Administrative Fee - $30
Buy In Amount - $250

($220 went to the prize pool)

Players were charged $250 to enter and then when you got to your table you had the "option" of giving the dealer $10 for a "dealer appreciation add-on of 2000 additional chips.

These forced tips are fairly common any more. Technically they are "optional" but in practice they are competitively mandatory. I'll leave whether these are fair or deceptive to another thread.

Disregarding the "optional" add-on cost, if you played a $250 event you got a receipt for $250.

My problem was with the $65 events. Their receipts show:

Buy In - $50
Player Fee - $4.00
Administrative Fee - $6.00
Buy In Amount - $60

($50 went to the prize pool)

Players were charged $65 to enter and then had to pay another $5 at the table for their "dealer appreciation" add on chips.

I thought they had made a mistake and went back to the podium. Told them I had paid $65 which I thought was the entry fee plus the add-on "tip". I was told there was no mistake, that's how they did it. I pointed out that I had a receipt that, for tax purposes, showed I had paid $60 but actually cost me $65.

I realize I don't get a receipt for the "dealer appreciation" tip since technically it is optional and not a charge to enter.

I asked others at my table what they had paid and all said $65 plus the $5 add-on.

Some may consider this nit-picking but it actually has a major effect on the cost of play.

Say you played 1000 of these in a year at a cost of $65,000 (disregarding the add-on) and cashed for a total of $65,000. You would have had a break even year.

But come tax time, you are required to show $65,000 in income to the IRS and are only allowed to deduct $60,000 in buy ins, resulting in a $5000 gain in income on which you must pay 40% in taxes (ymmv).

So, by having a break even year, you will owe the IRS an additional $2000

Have any of you encountered this at other casinos? It's bad enough to pay the exorbitant rake involved in these small tournaments but I'd at least like to get a receipt for the actual amount I am charged to enter.

The MSPT advertises heavily the fact that their Main Event structure was designed by Allen Kessler and is "Chainsaw approved". I doubt he would approve of this hidden cost in their satellites.

Allen?

To be clear, after paying $65 to enter and $5 for dealer appreciation fee, total cost was $70. Receipt was for $60.

I'm not complaining about the dealer appreciation fee. My complaint is they charged $65 to enter but gave a receipt for $60.

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Here's my response before the original thread was deleted, but ultimately all transactions go through each individual casino and everything is governed by that local gaming commission. They handle the money. The MSPT does not collect a % of the fees, you need to contact Meskwaki Casino to discuss their receipt policies. There is clearly not a prize pool issue here.

1) the $65 satellites are a straight $65 at Meskwaki, there is no additional $5 add-on, so there is no hidden cost. If something else occurred or you were somehow overcharged $5, that is an issue you need to take to the casino, MSPT does not collect or handle the money and this situation did not impact the prize pool. We do not hold a gaming license in any state so we are not authorized to hold your $5. It clearly states on all the handouts that it is a straight $65, no add-on for those satellites.

2) The reason we have a $10 add-on in the $250 satellite is because the prize for reaching the top 20% of the satellite is a $1,100 Main Event Certificate - which means no players are receiving cash or chips to tip. To my knowledge, nobody has ever tipped a satellite. Also, we do not withhold 3% of the prize pool for casino staff in a satellite like we do in the Main Event (industry standard). It is very important we take care of our dealers/staff, they put in long hours and deal with a lot of crap, and they are still underpaid. This could also apply to #1 above, nobody tips in a $65 satellite where the prize is a certificate nor do we withhold 3% of prize pool, and the casino makes very little if anything on a low buy-in event.

3) The receipt issue is a question for the individual casino, each casino has their own specific accounting policies based on what is required by each local gaming commission. The MSPT does not handle buy-ins, payouts, receipts or any financial transactions.

4) The Main Event is $1,000+$100, if you'd like to include a $10 dealer appreciation as a fee, then we're up to 11% - which I believe to be among the lowest in the industry - not to mention this is a 2-day tournament meaning the casino pays out twice as much in staff expense for only 10% fee.

5) Just to be clear, the MSPT does not get a % or $ of the fees at Meskwaki, so we certainly have no interest in scamming the player for more money. But at the same time, its important that the casino cover their costs to run the event, otherwise there would no longer be poker rooms. We have argued many times to keep our fees down for the player, and our partner casinos have been great about maintaining the same fees despite increased expenses and pressure to cover costs.

Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns. Hope this helps.

Thanks!
Bryan

Do you ask for a receipt when you tip cash at a restaurant?
You can always ask for a receipt for the add-on.

I don't need or expect a receipt for the add-on (tip). That's not my complaint.

My complaint is that it cost $65 to enter but my receipt shows I paid $60.

On top of the $65 you could pay another $5 for additional chips but that has nothing to do with the issue I'm concerned with.

I sent an email to the Meskwaki Gaming Commision describing my complaint. Today I got an email from them that stated:

"It appears that where the mistake lies was on our new supervisor at the podium who was running such tournament for the very first time all by himself. It seems that the source of his apparent confusion was the branding of this super satellite as a “$60+$5” versus “$65” event. Needless to say, our regular supervisory staff all know that whether we call it as “$60+$5” or “$65” makes no difference as to how each entry is being broken down, namely as shown in your receipt: $50 for the prize pool and $10 for staffing (plus $5 optional dealer add-on). But our greenhorn had misinterpreted it to mean that since it is now a “$65” event, it should also follow that $50 would go to the prize pool and $15 for staffing (instead of $10) plus another optional $5 as add-on. Of course, as you had correctly surmised, his erroneous interpretation had led him to make a wrong decision, and in effect he had overcharged each entry by $5."

A $5.00 refund is to be sent to me soon.

I'd like to publicly thank the folks at Meskwaki for quickly taking care of this relatively minor mixup. I look forward to returning the next time the MSPT is there, 10/29/16-11/06/16.

Will they be refunding everyone else too?

Either way, looks like a positive solution.

According to the email I received:

Later that very same day, the swing shift supervisors on duty tried all they could to return to the respective players the $5 overpayment. They succeeded to refund 26 out of 36 total entries as they were unable, for some reason, to reach the other 10 (including you). The following day when I got back on duty, I issued a procedure how to obtain the refund money from our cage if they recognize any of the 10 players who may have been still in-house. For the rest who could not be reached that week, our Finance Dept has agreed to mail them their $5 refund.

Since you did solve this issue, I would like to ask how many players were generally entered for the MSPT super satellites and satellites? I'm playing in an upcoming event and am curious

This was the only $65 satty I played and there were 36 entrants. I played a few of the $250's and they drew 125-140 players.

Wow...I didn't expect so many. Thanks for the heads up. I'll report back tomorrow on this weekends numbers.

Strange things happen at card rooms. A card room I sometimes play at, if you win an entry to a tournament as a high hand prize or for getting a straight flush or royal, you get a ticket for just the buy in. You then have to pay the entree fee out of pocket before you are allowed to play tourney. So you are essentially getting double raked. You are raked at the cash game you that you won the ticket in and then raked again before you can use said ticket

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getting a freeroll into a tourney minus the rake is all good...

The MSPT super satellite on 8/6 in Evansville had 57 players. The top 14 won entries to the $250 satellite.

Something's wrong with the math here. With 57 entrants the prize pool would be $2850, enough for 11 seats with 12th place getting $100.

Are you at the Indiana event or Minnesota?

There's not much I can say here except I read what was on the screen, and relayed the number of players that were to get entries...told to me by the dealers. I just wanted to give everyone a heads up of about how many people to expect since I couldn't find a lot about what to expect with the MSPT satellites and super satellites.

Evansville, Indiana.

Rebuys. Top 14 got the entry and 15th place got $850