The poker community certainly appreciates your passion Allen, and I really don't want to "muzzle" you. I'm all for vigorous debate, and you've certainly maintained your side of opposing best-stack forward very well. I'm pretty sure the thread isn't turning into an Aria lovefest.

Moving the dates of the WPT500 seems like a terrible idea to me. When the dates were July 1-6, it seemed like a great idea and some could consider it their way of satelliting into the WSOP ME. They could play one or more of the opening flights, advance to Day 2 and earn a nice score then play on Day 1C. Now that's not possible without a convoluted series of steps and players who booked their flights based on the original dates are screwed.

I'm certainly with you that a structure sheet for the WPT500 should have been made available long ago.

Its always been mystery rake with aria not sure how you are trying to suggest otherwise. No information posted for a month then you post a week ago that it will be posted within 24 hours and since then nothing just lol.

I'm a little hesitant about this play-down format, Matt, because its not something I'm used to on the East Coast. However, I'm keeping an open mind and will wait to see it for myself. I'm sure this will be a successful event regardless.

[QUOTE=Sect7G;43348934] [QUOTE=doublejoker;43348988] I believe the point of the best stack forward format is not to make the guarantee, but rather to get as many entries as possible. Matt and others believe that best stack forward will lead to more entries. I have no reason to disbelieve him since he is experienced in putting on these kinds of tournaments. I'm pretty sure if everyone hated them as much as the perma-whiners on these threads do, Matt would not be inclined to use this format.

This is only a bombshell if you've been paying absolutely no attention. Matt described the format well back on page 2 of this thread, and I even raised some questions about in in post #31 and later. I actually agree with all of your points which is why I find it to be an odd format choice. If I'm being honest, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind it and I haven't been given much of an explanation for why its being used. I kind of hope Matt provides one. But either way, I'm willing to see how it goes.

As was discussed in posts #15/#20 and thereabouts, I don't think the original schedule was conducive to treating this event as a satty into the WSOP ME. This schedule is certainly no better, however it does open things up for some interesting events at the Venetian during the 1-3rd of July and also makes the Aria event conflict less with WSOP ME qualifiers, which many players will want to play.

Hey Matt, in addition to some of the concerns I mentioned previously and Allen added to, another thing that seems less than desirable about the play-down format is the fact that, if you get a really busy day, like on that Friday or Saturday, playing down to 5% of the field could take a very long time. I haven't seen the structure but if its decent, I imagine it could take till 3 or 4 in the morning to get down to 5% of the field. I'm not a fan of playing that deep into the night because it can mess the next day up. I'm sure others don't care, but for those of us who are not night owls, can you let us know what time you expect these flights to go to based on some estimate of entries?

It is a tried a true format I have used 50+ times at Commerce and even at Bay 101 and it is ALWAYS withing a level either way, It's just math. Sometimes the bigger fields last a shorter amount of time to get to 5%.

Remember it's a 2 day tournament and so getting to a reasonable number on day 1 is mandatory.

The multi day format has nothing to do with rake and everything to do with needing 2,000 players to make the guarantee. I pleaded with Aria for a fair rake and they were happy to do so.

The format gives players that are short a chance to try and improve their stack without dumping their chips or worse at the end of the starting day 1's.

Let me repeat I have run many of theses tournaments smoothly and without issue so I hope you give it a try. I think as the guy that started multi day reentry events (with Sam Quinto) in the first place deserves at least some credit for understanding the nuances.

Not a lot of events you can find 2-day format with 1 million guarantee and only $564 buy in. I'll give it a try and thanks for putting it together!

$565, but I will cover your $1 though so look me up, It could be lucky!

I have absolutely no problem with the best stack forward format, unlike some others, because I realize it doesn't cause any more incentive for poor play and cheating that any other re-entry format.

As for the strange (at least to me) play down format, I will reserve judgment. However, you didn't answer my question. What time do you think those early flights (the ones I suspect to be the most-attended) will play to? When you're at a final table, its easy to just say, I'll play to whenever. However, we're talking about day 1's here. With this format its hard to know how long these usually go for, unless you can provide some guidance, having run so many of them.

I know this isnt what yall are really discussing about...
But does anyone have a structure sheet or anything on this event, can't find the details anywhere!
Thanks

Can the WPT/Aria please explain the reason for the new dates after they had already been announced? There have been a bunch of online satellite winners already, and other players besides T8urmoney have already made their plans for July 1-6.

"It will be available in 24 hours". :-)

We will be at 5% at roughly 1:30am

Ok I will find you. Only budgeted $564 for this event.

Matt, I think most all of us would like to hear is what is the reason for this format?
What is the gain for the casino? I see no upside for the players.
Players want a level playing field.

As for best stack forward, the complaint that Allen makes has to do with game security; and the potential for carrying chips from one event to another. To some degree this could have always been a problem; but it is certainly real for these large prize pools. But this could be satisfied if casino's wanted to make the investment in different chips for each day 1. But that costs money.

The bigger problem I see with best stack forward is it is bad for tournaments long term.
We are now back to the level playing field; there have been a few posters itt discussing how they feel they are at a disadvantage vs. deeper pocketed opponents. It really does not matter if the reality is they are not at a disadvantage. If people perceive they are, then they quit or play elsewhere.
I'm talking about the guy who makes 3 or 4 events a year; players and casino TD's need to keep that guy coming.
Not a problem now, but could be later.

Next, who the hell is responsible for the structure sheets?

Finally, you had responded earlier to one of my questions about re-entry, and said there would be NO same day re-entry allowed. Are you sure that is correct?

Every player wants to play for large prize pools. Doesn't matter if it is a pro or amateur; but they all want to have a fair shot.

And you kicked the mystery door open a little wider a few posts up when you said it was "likely" that you would be TD.

Thanks for listening.

If I am TD it will be for the WPT500 only and they have a great staff and TD for the regular summer series named Aaron Well. I am sure they were waiting for the date change before they came out with the other structure and events.

I can only go by what I know which is I have been running BSF since I started running these reentry events and have not had an issue and I have safegaurds in place to make sure their isn't an issue either. Let me repeat there are problems with ALL reentry events but when you are guaranteeing $1,000,000 for $565 you need to have reentry, no way around it. I do not wish to point out all the ways you can try and scam a reentry poker tournament (maybe someday if I write a tell all book). There are still reasons to "dump chips" and play loose affecting the one bullet player in non BSF tournaments as well.

The bottom line is many players have grown tired of reentry whether it be BSF or not and while I have also changed my opinion on reentry (I wrote an article about it. REENTRY IS BAD FOR TOURNAMENTS LONG TERM but on this type of event I agree it is necessary and unfortunately they may be here to stay.

One entry per day and I feel that really makes it much more fair vs the deep pocket gambleros.

I can tell you this will be a great event and I look forward to showing you all how the 12% payout 5% advance works super smoothly.

Thanks very much to Matt. Can Savage Tournaments please become the consultant to bwin.party to help fix its many other problems that players have previously told Party_Rep, including the WPT500 Steps and SNG structures, allowing tournament dollars to be transferred, sold, or redeemed for live events just like PokerStars/FTP has for years; bounty rule that makes no sense, etc?

If the genie will grant me another wish, it is that Matt be the TD for WPT Fallsview in 2015 to save us long-suffering players from another poker vortex next winter!

Hey, Matt, can you point to a similar tournament (ie multi-day, guarantee, etc.) you've run in the past. I'd like to check out the results. I'm curious about the final payout structure given the daily payouts.

Just check out Mega Millions at the Bike....nope its not Matt Savage but its generally a 11day 2 heat a day tourney run by the Bike every few months, I'm almost certain that they copied said idea from Matt Savage. Commerce(Matt) also runs big guarantee similar tournaments albeit generally 6-8 heats vs 22 like Bike and for a smaller guarantee though actually bigger daily fields like maybe a 500k vs 1million in a 3rd of the time.

Anyway go on thebike.com and look at results for any of these mega millions tournies, only real difference is instead of getting a slightly above min cash for you small stacks forwards they usually give you a bigger prize like a seat in a 3500 wpt...which really encourages those that already advanced a reason to play again.


Now only 5% make day 2...which means the amount of players actually playing subsequent days that already have a stack forward is very small especially with only 5 heats.

In closing I hate re-entries, i conform cause its what drives the masses. I prefer single entry tournaments with a reasonable registration period 4 hours or less. I am looking forward to WSOP due to no re-entry(i know million maker but two heats ain't terrible) but I am disappointed that now you can register even during dinner break

Here's a recent example of a BSF tournament held at Horseshoe Hammond:

CPC Event #1

You can disregard the x2 Qualifiers column as this was an incentive to increase the total entries for this event and does not exist in the one in Aria. However, this does mean that $55,00 was taken out of the prize pool. Once again, this is not applicable at Aria.

Matt,

I don't think you answered the core of his complaint. It's not about whether or not the format is fair for the casual player vs the dep pocket gambleros, it's whether or not it's PERCEIVED as fair.

I can think of many other situations where decisions are made or rules are implemented that have nothing to do with fairness but rather are done solely to create the appearance of fairness or the appease an unreasonable position held by many people. For exmaple, buy-in caps in NLHE cash games - I know there are many different factors at play, but one factor mentioned is that many casual players have the asinine belief that a deep stack can "bully the short stacks" in a cash game, and will not play in a game where people are buying in super deep (even though they're buying in short and the rules allow it), because they feel they will be bullied by the deep stacks. You can spend a lifetime trying to explain to these players how silly they're being and how dumb the mindset is, and let's be honest, it's collosally dumb, but if a segment of your customer base is collosally dumb, you need to figure out a way to accomodate their impariment. I know there are many reasons for buy-in rules and it's much more complex than that, but it's just one example.

Do you think this particular form of re-entry helps "calm" the, let's call it, "non-savvy" players concerns over re-rentry tournaments, regardless of whether or not it actually does?

Ok guys, It's all finally here in one place. Jpegs followed by links to PDF. Schedule first, then smallest buy-in to largest.


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...c-Schedule.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...or-WPT-500.pdf


Think that's everything. Sorry for the delay.

http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf



http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...-Structure.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...ia-Classic.pdf

Turbo Day 1F Structure has been slightly modified to make sure we finish in time:

http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...-Structure.pdf


http://www.heytd.com/wp-content/uplo...-Structure.pdf

Think that's everything. Sorry for the delay.

I agree that it is perception and many feel that it alters play so much similar to the "bully" effect you describe.