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The US elections. The show must go on... The US elections. The show must go on...

05-27-2016 , 01:23 AM
Surely you're familiar with the phrase 'Don't judge a book by it's cover.'

Yes, Sanders has been in office a lot longer than Obama, that's true. And Obama's message may have been one of Hope and Change but his policies in office have often fallen pretty well within the territory of the establishment, having both John Kerry and Hillary Clinton as Secretaries of State is a great example of establishment politics. Obama may have pushed the limits in a few places, but he has definitely stayed within the lines of what the DNC establishment is cool with.

Sanders clearly would not do the same.

But I don't think you actually believe for a second that Obama is more anti DNC establishment than Sanders is.

Honestly that would be an absurd claim.

And yes Trump qualifies as anti establishment too, well kind of anyway, that's why I called this year establishment vs. anti establishment instead of Republican vs. Democrat, because that phenomenon is happening in both parties this year.
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05-27-2016 , 05:28 AM
Seems unlikely we will ever know what Sanders would or would not do, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Dems ticket is Clinton/Sanders.

The point is Obama campaigned on anti-establishment, regardless what happened when he was in office. In any case, there isn't a long docket of names that qualify for cabinet positions, so it isn't surprising that known names are going to be included.
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05-28-2016 , 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Sure. But if you look at polling numbers nowadays, there is a decent chunk of Bernie supporters who are either undecided or actually polling for Trump right now. This is largely expected, and we've seen it before when spurned supporters of the losing candidate temporarily say they'll go for the opposite party prior to the winner wrapping up, making nice with the loser, and unifying the party. This is a good opportunity for Bernie to bring the party together and to show some sore losers in his camp that even if it's not going to be Bernie, it definitely shouldn't be Trump.
I thought Sanders was socially left? I can't see a "large chunk" of his voters switching to Trump if he is on the far right. It just doesn't add up! If anything they will vote for Hillary or not vote at all out of protest.
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05-28-2016 , 07:01 PM
That should be the case.

However there are some Bernie fans out there that think the following way.

'Bernie is anti establishment and that's why I'm backing him. Trump is also anti establishment that must mean he's like Bernie. Hillary is establishment, that means she's the devil. If my boy Bernie doesn't make it past July no way in hell I'm backing that corporate shill Hillary. All I know is I liked Bernie because he was anti establishment, I see that Trump fellow is anti establishment too, I guess if it comes down to him and Hillary I'll have to back him, because I like anti establishment.'

Some people are so fed up with that system, that they don't bother looking into the actually policies that Trump and Bernie have, they simply look at the fact that they both are rallying against the system and so they figure that makes the two of them like enough.
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05-29-2016 , 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITT666
That should be the case.

However there are some Bernie fans out there that think the following way.

'Bernie is anti establishment and that's why I'm backing him. Trump is also anti establishment that must mean he's like Bernie. Hillary is establishment, that means she's the devil. If my boy Bernie doesn't make it past July no way in hell I'm backing that corporate shill Hillary. All I know is I liked Bernie because he was anti establishment, I see that Trump fellow is anti establishment too, I guess if it comes down to him and Hillary I'll have to back him, because I like anti establishment.'

Some people are so fed up with that system, that they don't bother looking into the actually policies that Trump and Bernie have, they simply look at the fact that they both are rallying against the system and so they figure that makes the two of them like enough.
Yeah I can accept on that basis Trump would get some of the Sanders' vote.
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06-05-2016 , 07:45 PM
Trump says some judge hates him because said judge is Mexican.

Now Clinton is explaining how Trump's German heritage is a bad thing

She should do well to remember the old saying: "Don't argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you at their own game."
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06-07-2016 , 12:20 AM
I learned that this Presidential election is breaking records on English betting sites. Apparently Trump is closing in on Clinton. What does this say about the international opinion of America right now?

I was kind of half and half on Trump, but I've definitely reached my breaking point on him. I can't figure out why anyone would support him at all at this point. The interview with CNN is just atrocious. Even if I can't figure his opinion, to say the stuff he's saying at this point is no longer a little game, he's unconscionable. If he's so confident about winning, them whatever. To even suggest that a judge be removed because of race, gender, or whatever displays an unacceptable ignorance of how this country functions. Wow, just wow.

Even his lawyers are saying the judge did the correct thing by delaying the trial until November. Yes, if he is truly saying this stuff, then he must truly want to decimate free press and so many other things. The victim card is overplayed at this point.
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06-15-2016 , 10:18 AM
Trump unfavorable rating hits 70%. Clinton is at 55%. Hopefully the foreigners forgive us for our circumstance. We had no choices this year.
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09-18-2016 , 12:31 PM
Dave, you have not posted in this thread for awhile. I wonder what your thoughts are now? This has been a very strange election year. I heard that Trump is doing well in the polls, leading in Ohio and Iowa. He is doing better than I expected at this point in the race.
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09-19-2016 , 02:37 AM
Hi, Katy;

I haven't been posting in the forums much at all lately, plus I know this thread pissed some people off.

I was in a study group a few week back. We had to watch the Commander in Chief Q&A show. I was a bit taken aback at how perverse the whole show was. At some point, we had questions and I truly didn't know what to think of it. I didn't know who won and I found I liked each candidate less and less. Neither were really that good.

I do want to make a point on the bruhaha about how Clinton was pressed too hard on her email situation: she needs to learn to speak in concise, bite-sized terms. I won't say it was all her fault that her entire time was devoted to that, but her over-explanations didn't make matters any better. I accept the fact that she may or may not have made a mistake, but I don't really see how any of this is relevant to anything the president is going to do. Obama still has to use a BlackBerry, and I suspect she will be locked down the same.

I'm still following more for the entertainment value than anything, since, let's be honest, no one has actually talked about issues or resolutions to those issues, even when given ample chance. I love the actions of Trump on Friday, using the birther controversy to bring out a train of supporters.

I'm bothered because Trump has shown an incredible disrespect to the journalists. The press's job is to hold our politicians responsible. Going out and attempting to sue NYT or using an "announcement" to eat up airtime is stepping on the very foundations of our press and our country. I don't think he truly gets what "free speech" means, despite his own overzealous use of the notion.

Clinton is doing the same thing, but more subtle, by simply ignoring any opportunity to communicate with anyone, and that's just not presidential, IMO. I don't feel like going to read her website to learn about her thoughts, and I'm wondering if this entire election will be decided on no information at all.
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09-20-2016 , 12:08 AM
Why do you think Trump is leading in Ohio? I haven't been there for over 15 years now, so not sure what it is like anymore, though I suspect still very uh... lots of things?

I guess I have to take back my thoughts on the email server thing. Supposedly, the guy who was in charge of her emails made a post on Reddit asking for advice on how to delete email headers. I'm, of course, not totally convinced considering Reddit's track record on these things, but if true, this is really bad stuff.
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09-21-2016 , 03:25 PM
lol! Is that really true?

I told one of my coworkers that the police caught the guy who they think is responsible for the bombs in Manhattan. She turned around and told me that we better vote for Trump because Hillary is "EVIL"! Her intensity was weird and I didn't really know what to say so I just laughed. A lot of people hate Hillary more than they hate Trump. My coworker said it has to do with making the US safe from terrorists (which I am all for by the way). According to my coworker, Trump will keep us safe, Hillary will wave all the terrorists in with a flag. She really believes this.

For the record, I don't like either of them
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09-21-2016 , 09:05 PM
I wonder if anyone actually likes any of these candidates. Is this election more about not voting for the other than voting for someone?

I'll probably watch the debates on Monday and feel bad for doing it as that implies supporting either of these two. Really wish they'd open up the debates to Johnson, though he hasn't been coming across very well either. I suspect Trump wouldn't know what Allepo is either, so there is that.
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09-22-2016 , 10:55 AM
The reddit thing, even if true, the guy wasn't about to do anything particularly nefarious if you take him at his word.

As far as why Trump is doing well in Ohio:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...m-before-obama

Quote:
Donald Trump’s campaign chair in a prominent Ohio county has claimed there was “no racism” during the 1960s and said black people who have not succeeded over the past half-century only have themselves to blame.

Kathy Miller, chair of the Republican nominee’s campaign in Mahoning County, who is white, made the remarks during a taped interview with the Guardian’s Anywhere but Washington series of election videos.

“If you’re black and you haven’t been successful in the last 50 years, it’s your own fault. You’ve had every opportunity, it was given to you,” she said.

Quote:
Miller added: “I don’t think there was any racism until Obama got elected. We never had problems like this ... Now, with the people with the guns, and shooting up neighborhoods, and not being responsible citizens, that’s a big change, and I think that’s the philosophy that Obama has perpetuated on America.”

Miller dismissed the suggestion that Trump was exploiting racist or prejudiced views among some voters as “the media making stuff up”. Instead, she said of the Republican nominee: “He’s very willing to talk about issues that have never been discussed publicly.”

When it was pointed out that some people might find her remarks offensive, Miller replied: “I don’t care, it’s the truth.”
Quote:
She said there were “some” African Americans but played down their importance, suggesting they were only a small portion of the population and do not tend to turn out in elections in significant numbers.

African Americans constitute 16% of Mahoning county’s population, which is larger than the state and national average.

During the past two presidential elections, voter turnout in Ohio was actually higher among black people than white people.

Miller, however, suggested low turnout among black people could be connected to culture. “I don’t think that’s part of the way they’re raised,” she said. “For us, I mean, that was something we all did in our families, we all voted.”
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09-22-2016 , 11:45 AM
Trying to alter email headers for a "VIP" is utterly ****ed up. You work with computers if I recall, and I'm frankly appalled that you would think this is okay behavior. You should also think this it is appalling that anyone who works with computers actually believes this is possible or responsible, and even worse if this person posted on Reddit asking for advice.

But yes, let's all blame Ohio racism for Clinton being a terrible candidate, and conveniently forget that Obama won that state 2 times and it wasn't exactly a nail-biter on either election.
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09-22-2016 , 12:07 PM
Are we supposed to ignore that Trump's whole candidacy is founded on racism, too?
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09-22-2016 , 12:45 PM
I don't get how people can claim that both are so despicable that it's lose-lose. Trump's is objectively worse by several orders of magnitude. He's racist, mysoginistic, and frankly anti-American. It's really hard to understand how it can be ignored that he goes against freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and the whole concept in America of equality. It's very sad that he can be president and that people actually think Hillary would be worse.

Furthermore, almost everything Trump says can be factually demonstrated to be false or at least misleading. It's ridiculous this election is even close.

Also, to answer dave's question on whether anybody likes any of these candidates. I like Hillary. I think she has been great in the debates and that the scandals against her have been "created" rather than real. I think a lot of the pushback against Hillary is sexism.

Having said that, I understand that there are things to dislike about Hillary. She made a mistake with the email server thing, she stood on the wrong side of issues (in my opinion) several times. But her faults are not comparable with Trump's.
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09-22-2016 , 01:47 PM
I'm so sick of this.

To those that say it's a choice between two bad candidates, you're idiots. Comparing what's wrong with Hillary with what's catastrophically wrong with Trump is like saying a paper cut is similar to a flesh-eating virus.

This article in GQ says all I need:

If You Vote For Trump Then Screw You
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09-22-2016 , 02:22 PM
I love this sentence: "Comparing what's wrong with Hillary with what's catastrophically wrong with Trump is like saying a paper cut is similar to a flesh-eating virus."

The GQ article is a little too insulting for my taste, but I get it. It's unfathomable that Trump has so many supporters. I even heard someone say the other day "Trump hasn't been wrong once". I couldn't believe it.
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09-22-2016 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enrique
I don't get how people can claim that both are so despicable that it's lose-lose. Trump's is objectively worse by several orders of magnitude. He's racist, mysoginistic, and frankly anti-American. It's really hard to understand how it can be ignored that he goes against freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and the whole concept in America of equality. It's very sad that he can be president and that people actually think Hillary would be worse.

Furthermore, almost everything Trump says can be factually demonstrated to be false or at least misleading. It's ridiculous this election is even close.

Also, to answer dave's question on whether anybody likes any of these candidates. I like Hillary. I think she has been great in the debates and that the scandals against her have been "created" rather than real. I think a lot of the pushback against Hillary is sexism.

Having said that, I understand that there are things to dislike about Hillary. She made a mistake with the email server thing, she stood on the wrong side of issues (in my opinion) several times. But her faults are not comparable with Trump's.
I don't think it is sexism so much as it is Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama... Clinton? It didn't feel like there was much choices in the initial running of the Democrats. Bernie blew up at the end, but the super delegates were already committed to her. That's fine under the rules, but it's kind of gross to think about how all that went down.

I don't think that anyone at this point would agree that Trump is objectively better than Clinton if you really pushed them on security or international relations. Health Care was and still is terrible policy as written and it needs to be revisited.*

Job growth is a non-issue, since I don't think that politicians have much of an effect on this area, but I can totally understand how people in the rust belt are angry about manufacturing jobs leaving. Fortunately, I left Cleveland right when manufacturing was sinking, and by extension, decimating the entire state. It is hard to remember that since I'm no longer in the area, and I can only imagine how hard it is to relate if you haven't actually seen all of it for yourself. It really was about as close to 3rd world as you'd find in America.

Of course, there are other things to note about Ohio. I went to Cleveland Public, which has "improved" to being almost out of the top 10 worst school systems in the nation. Yes, racism was extreme, but it went in both directions, and I'd rather not talk about it here.

here's a quote from wiki: "The district continued to improve its graduation rate over several years, increasing it from 39.5% in 2002 to over 50% of students graduating in 2004" It is now at 56%, which is really something. I was in a class before these years. If I recall, there was 900 freshmen every year and only 70 graduated.

You know, it is a totally different world with very complex problems. It over simplistic to state that Ohioans are "racist" and therefore like Trump. Obama sold hope and that didn't work out for everyone.
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09-22-2016 , 04:20 PM
Hillary won the most votes, the most pledged delegates, and the most super delegates. The nomination wasn't stolen from Bernie in any way: he just lost.
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09-22-2016 , 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Hillary won the most votes, the most pledged delegates, and the most super delegates. The nomination wasn't stolen from Bernie in any way: he just lost.
Even if that's all true, and weather or not it is somewhat depends upon your definition of 'won,' it doesn't mean Hillary and Bernie were running on an equal playing field. I'd say they clearly were not.
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09-22-2016 , 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Are we supposed to ignore that Trump's whole candidacy is founded on racism, too?
Turrible. Trump level deluded.
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09-22-2016 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITT666
Even if that's all true, and weather or not it is somewhat depends upon your definition of 'won,' it doesn't mean Hillary and Bernie were running on an equal playing field. I'd say they clearly were not.
Am I supposed to be shocked that people who've been involved in party politics for decades, culturing relationships with power brokers and important community members, have an advantage in electoral politics?
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09-22-2016 , 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
Am I supposed to be shocked that people who've been involved in party politics for decades, culturing relationships with power brokers and important community members, have an advantage in electoral politics?
No you're not supposed to be shocked, but considering that is the case don't you find it a bit naive to say Hillary flat out won democratically and Sanders flat out lost democratically?

Yes she had more votes of every variety than him when the final results were tallied, that's clear. How legitimately democratically those final results were reached is not as clear.

Your post suggest the final result was reached fairly and cleanly through the democratic process. I wouldn't be so sure of that.

All that being said, no doubt things are what they are and are where they are now.
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