If we're going to torture then we should at least make it creative. Massive tickling and watching 7 days worth of "sweet 16" on MTV would be just as effective no?

IMO I think our intelligence system is really screwed up at the moment. We should be using honey instead of vinegar. Torture only justifies our enemies actions...to them obviously.

You're not really equating an execution of a serial killer after due process and multiple appeals, say Ted Bundy for instance, with the beheadings of Daniel Pearl civilians and our armed forces personnel by our enemy?

Nice pot stirring Blarg. Just because you despise the previous administration, it doesn't make whatever fantasy you type true.

For the record, I'm not defending torture.

I'm saying that the outrage is deafening over any western government policy to deal with our enemies. Meanwhile, the murderous brutality of the enemy is glossed over and excused.

Effective is in the eyes of the executer. It can be answers/any answers, can be one way of trying. It can be to set an example or a way of getting some action/progress to unite your own group against a common enemy. Effective in whatever people can achieve with it.

Also after the posts have been moved to this thread, my posts don´t all exactly fit as an answer to this thread title.

Entertainme, I'm surprised to find you mouthing this right wing propaganda. Nowhere have I seen this sort of brutality excused; in fact, such acts have been widely and justifiablely condemned by most nations. Only in the fantasies of Ann Coulter and like-minded nut jobs do civilized people (read "liberals") excuse these acts. Indeed, this is how the typical argument goes: "The US should not torture." To which the Fox News morons reply, "What about beheadings? Why didn't you complain then?"

For some strange reason, I thought we are supposed to be better than those who would behead civilians. All too often, we have seen that although we may not be worse, we are not better. This disappoints me terribly as I'm sure it does many Americans.

Entertainme

I'm English, and remember the IRA bombings of civilians all over the place in the 1970s and 1980s. I remember how the more attention was paid to what they did, the more they seemed to do it. I'm talking about people deliberately targetting busy civilian areas, not bombing or shooting soliders. Even as a kid, I realised there was absolutely no reasoning with fanatics, and just showing them how heinous you thought their crimes were seemed to give them a hardon to make it worse next time. That's my own personal reason for never talking much about the barbarity of certan fanatics.

I will however rail against institutionalised barbarism in what I consider civilised countries. Because I would like to think the citizens of such countries would also rail against it.

7,

Experts I have heard have said the best way to get good, usable information is through sustained questioning, using the same questioner.

What about the murderous brutality of our forces? We are doing more killing than "our enemies."

What the hell are you talking about? This is what you posted:

And I said:
In response. You're the one making the strange post.

In the first sentence, by conflating, in your words, "any western government policy" with torture, you are indeed at the least indirectly supporting it and indulging in obvious hyperbole. In the second sentence, by trying to put torture up against beheading as if to imply that we should not criticize it because others do terrible things too, you are again indeed appearing to support it.

If all your friends walked off a bridge, but all your enemies walked over the side of a cliff, would that make walking off a bridge a good idea? Would the fact that idiots walk off cliffs make walking off bridges any better? Would it be clarifying the issue of the value of walking off bridges in any way whatsoever to talk about other people doing negative things?

Ditto to all of this. Where are all the liberals supporting beheadings? Are these those undercover "un-American" Americans I hear so much about, the ones who aren't "real" people and don't live in "real" places and who will be cleansed one day when a real rain comes down and cleans all the filth off the streets?

I think you are right in that there is no reasoning with fanatics. I think it is the same as wanting to believe sexual predators can by rehabilitated or cured. The only conclusion I can come up with is that this whole capture and torture to get information is useless (as is trying to rehabilitate a sexual predator) because they are fanatical and will not spill what they know ever. The end result should be to kill the bastards so they do not continue to hurt/kill other human beings. Remove them as you would a mad dog.

That's because it's pretty much senseless for me to participate in any discussion in the Lounge about politics. I plead temporary insanity in this instance.

'Screw Them'
Markos Moulitsas Zuniga, who runs the Angry Left Daily Kos blog, had this to say in a post yesterday about the murders of four American contractors who were helping to deliver food in Fallujah, Iraq:

Every death should be on the front page

Let the people see what war is like. This isn't an Xbox game. There are real repercussions to Bush's folly.

That said, I feel nothing over the death of merceneries [sic]. They aren't in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them.

Emphasis added. Posted by the owner of the site, Daily Kos, the largest liberal blog on the net, 2004.

However, I will grant you that 99% of Americans would never be so callous over American deaths at the hands of our enemies. But, as the above demonstrates, it does happen.

This is exactly the kind of hyperbole I object too that prompted my original post. We're not better John? Really? I have to wear a burkha to work tomorrow? I should expect to be subject to an honor killing if I shame my husband? (Maybe we'll just have to stone our daughter.) We can behead the next Muslim we see if we consider them an infidel?

We are ****ing light years better.

I actually agree with this. I've read that Israelis are pretty good at getting information out of their prisoners with prolonged interviews, (but I'm truly no expert and would need to do a lot of reading.)

Really? Do you know any of our armed forces? Do you understand that we've many times tied their hands in battle and put them in greater danger because of our high standards?

We should stop with this nonsense and you'll be happy to live under Sharia law then?

DO NOT try put words into my mouth.

I will confess to engaging in hyperbole by in any way inferring that any significant portion of the population is not just as horrified by the brutality of our enemies.

However, there's plenty of hyperbole going around that is not of my making.

Did you really post that the US policy for the last 8 years was beheading? Really? Please provide a link.


In summary. I do not condone torture. I do question where the line is drawn. Is nudity torture? A Liquid diet that's nutritionally complete?

I believe that things went to far. I believe we need to revise the system. I will never believe that we are not far and away superior to the enemy that perpetrated 911, the London attacks, the Spain attacks, etc.

entertainme makes good, fair points.

Waterboarding should not be indiscriminately lumped in as torture. Waterboarding was used because it has had a centuries long track record of being an effective technique by which to extract good intelligence.

The military and intelligence professionals who use this technique have almost certainly been waterboarded themselves. It is part of their training. Americans waterboard their own troops and pilots are part of SERE training.

The biggest problem was the Cheney/Rumsfeld crew telling intelligence professionals what they needed to find. Cheney/Rumsfeld pressured these people to find information on things which did not exist (like weapons of mass destruction). This turned the process upside down. Waterboarding is often said to be the most effective single technique in getting a person to tell you what they know...cracking a guy. Unfortunately, Rumsfeld and Cheney were after something else.

No, we are no better because I was comparing specific acts, beheading and torture, which, by the way, is illegal. Yet we have practiced it anyway. Torture can be defined, yet the Bush administration's lawyers drew up guidelines that clearly overstepped the line between interrogation and torture.

Like most people, I condemn the subjugation of women, but you are painting Muslims with a rather broad brush there. Many Muslim women keep their heads covered in public, even here in the US, because it is a religious practice, not for fear of stoning.

Also, are we better than those who have perpetrated terror throughout the world? Yes, but I'm not cheered by the facts of our history, nor should anyone be.

What a sad commentary on the state of the nation that this question is even being asked. Was it not enough that, as a nation, we allowed a thrice rejected policy paper on the democratization of the Middle-East to be wrapped around the need to retaliate against the 9/11 attacks and validate the invasion of a country on entirely false premises?

The answer, at least for the US, is that torture is not justified. Both, parties' presidential candidates were on record as being opposed to torture and the country voted in a man who flatly rejected any arguments to the contrary.

IMO, the arguments in this thread that strive to excuse or validate the use of torture as government policy are fallacious. "Because they're evil doers" is no excuse for illegal, immoral and unethical acts.

Summary of the torture Memos:

Sleep Deprivation
Nudity
Dietary Manipulation (Liquid diet)
Abdominal Slap
Attention Grasp
Facial Slap
Facial Hold
Waterboarding
Wall Standing
Water Dousing
Stress Positions
Cramped Confinement
Confinement with Insects
Walling

These make us no better than barbarians that decapitate civilians?

I am not painting Muslims with a broad brush. I am commenting on the beliefs of the terrorists that we are all infidels, that unless we convert it is not only permissible, but rewarded in heaven to kill even the innocent.

I am cheered by the fact that I live in a nation that believes that my rights are inherent, not granted by the government.

I am cheered by the fact that we have freedom of religion.

I am proud of our armed forces and thankful for their service.

I believe that our country has flaws and that it is the duty of every citizen to participate in the debate so we can be better in the future.


But, I will never concede that we are in any way comparable to or can be equated to the terrorists.

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

You're the President. You can allow another 9/11 on the west coast or you can allow three prisoners to be waterboarded, something your own personnel undergoes during training. What do you do?

Or let's make it more personal. Your loved ones are on a bus, with a bomb that will definitely explode one hour from now. The suspect is in custody, but not talking. Where do you draw the line now?

I've never been in either position. I honestly can't say what I would decide.

you honestly can't say what you would do in the case where your family is on the bus? seriously?

My best guess is I would be holding the gun, taking shots at knees, etc.

do you have any loved ones on the west coast?

I get your point, but I think we'd all agree there's a distinction between an individual acting out of concern for their loved ones and the state making policy decisions to protect us.

It's a very gray line when lives are at stake, isn't it?

im really not sure...but i do know that there are definitely times where i wouldnt hesitate to torture, or order the torture of some people...we just saw that in your examples above...

are the people saying "no torture ever" really not acting in the bus scenario entertainme put above if the choice was theirs?

WSJ: The Memos Prove We Didn't Torture

No severe pain or long term psychological impact.

This is not torture.

lol.

It's not torture cos Cheney and his lackeys say it isn't.

Why are they doing it then? For fun?


Okay then...

To those of you that say it isn't/say it is but it's acceptable anyway, would you have any problem with it being used in standard police procedure?

So you found a blog. Big deal. Anyone can do that. My question was, where are all the liberals supporting beheading?

Exactly. But your casting it as if it were "something liberals do" is more than wrong; it's wrong with a purpose, i.e., slanted.

What does wearing a burka have to do with either torture or beheadings. That is hyperbole. Free women in Turkey and France are actually campaigning for the right to wear burkas where it has been denied to them under official government policy.

You mean like taking "information" it's almost impossible to verify, from known untrustworthy subjects and people fighting with their neighbors, and using that as the basis to send predator drones or cruise missiles into buildings and blow up civilians?

What's sharia got to do with this? And what does US living under sharia law have to do with anything. Iraq and Afghanistan did not invade us and they have no ongoing plans to conquer us. We invaded them. Again, you are lapsing into some very off base hyperbole that isn't just an exaggeration but has nothing to do with our present situation at all. It's a rant on a fantasy.

I didn't put a single word into your mouth, and also, what I did say appears to have gone right over your head. Probably because you're too excited, because I don't believe you're dumb.

In summary. I do not condone torture. I do question where the line is drawn. Is nudity torture? A Liquid diet that's nutritionally complete?

Who cares? Who is even questioning that? You are defending something nobody is attacking.

Unless you listen to the Rush Limbaugh show too much perhaps. But not normal people who aren't bizarre media shock jock level stereotypes.

Many experts disagree that you will get reliable information this way so it is far from the case that what you are saying here is generally agreed upon.

There is also the problem of signing the Geneva convention and then deciding not to uphold it.

There is the further problem that McCain pointed out before he caved in to the powers of darkness that if we torture others, it ratchets up the case against America all over the entire world enormously and makes torturing our prisoners virtually mandatory in retaliation.