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Torture by gov't justified? Torture by gov't justified?

04-24-2009 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertop101
I find it truly sad that still in our days, there are people who believe that torture is bad.
Then go away and make us both happy.
Torture by gov't justified? Quote
04-24-2009 , 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kudzudemon
Then go away and make us both happy.
Oh snap.

That was the verbal equivalent of bamboo shoots under the fingernails!

Take it back!!!
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04-24-2009 , 09:49 PM
See this broadcast today on NPR's All Things Considered: Information from key suspect gained before torture.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=103475220
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04-25-2009 , 02:20 AM
Real Time With Bill Maher did a fantastic job on this issue on the latest show.
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04-27-2009 , 06:33 AM
I heard on the radio yesterday that apparently some Japanese soldiers were shot for war crimes for waterboarding Allied prisoners. This sparked my interest given some 'waterboarding isn't torture' comments in here, and I did a little cursory research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die. It is considered a form of torture by legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials,military judges, and human rights organizations. As early as the Spanish Inquisition it was used for interrogation purposes, to punish and intimidate, and to force confessions.

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

In 2007 it was reported that the CIA was using waterboarding on extrajudicial prisoners and that the United States Department of Justice had authorized the procedure, a revelation that sparked a worldwide political scandal. Al-Qaeda suspects upon whom the CIA is known to have used waterboarding include Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.


This is just part of the text, and I've taken out further reading references to make it more readable, but please go look at the page and links yourself.

I did have to laugh what was used as torture in the Spanish Inquisition (who had a whole range of tortures available, and much looser strictures on what they could and couldn't do) is now being described by some as 'not really torture'.
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04-27-2009 , 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by katyseagull
I have increased respect for Shepard Smith after watching what he said on his show last night. There are 2 different videos (both are worth watching)

Shep: I'm a pompous ass?? I'm a...I'm that because I'm an American and I don't want my government torturing on my behalf? I'm not defining it but I'm telling you they had better not do it. If we're going to be Ronald Reagan's shining city on the hill, we don't get to torture. We don't do it."


Scroll down to the last video clip if you want to hear his uncensored comments. He gets pretty heated!

Shepard Smith uncensored




My feeling has always been that the people who ordered the torture should be put on trial. Crimes against humanity, breaking the Geneva Convention rules.

Again, I only heard yesterday this guy is an epmloyee of the Fox Network. Wow, when an employee of Fox says you're going too far, you know you're WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out there.
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04-27-2009 , 07:22 AM
DB,

Apparently the US manual for waterboarding comes right from the Khymer Rouge playbook. And those who perpetrated such acts were tried and convicted.
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04-27-2009 , 03:44 PM
Christopher Hitchens gets waterboarded for Vanity Fair Article
Article: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...hitchens200808
Video: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...ns_video200808
Torture by gov't justified? Quote
04-27-2009 , 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirddan
Christopher Hitchens gets waterboarded for Vanity Fair Article
Article: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...hitchens200808
Video: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...ns_video200808
wow...great links, thanks
Torture by gov't justified? Quote
04-27-2009 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirddan
Christopher Hitchens gets waterboarded for Vanity Fair Article
Article: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...hitchens200808
Video: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...ns_video200808
That guy has some balls to go through that voluntarily.
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04-27-2009 , 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cole
DB,

Apparently the US manual for waterboarding comes right from the Khymer Rouge playbook. And those who perpetrated such acts were tried and convicted.
Oh that's precious JC. Khmyer Rouge thugs were convicted of waterboarding, not mass murder, rape or any other horrors. They were tried and convicted of waterboarding. LOL.


The left wing fantasies about the Evil Bush Administration are growing wilder by the day. Now apparently the Bush Administration ordered waterboarding not for national security reasons, but for political reasons. Namely to link Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein. This narrative has been created I guess because the recently released torture memos weren't juicy enough.
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04-27-2009 , 04:36 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100402005.html

It seems waterboarding was a war crime to Americans in the past - people were charged with war crimes for it. And American soldiers were charged with doing it to non-soldiers.

So why wouldn't it be now, again?

Main reasons so far
- it's not torture, because it's been reclassified by a recent American administration as that (contradicting previous American Administrations and international opinion)
- and anyway, they aren't soldiers, so international conventions don't apply. (What? So it's okay to torture anyone from another country who isn't a soldier? What? WHAT?)


WHAT?

Last edited by diebitter; 04-27-2009 at 04:44 PM.
Torture by gov't justified? Quote
04-27-2009 , 06:37 PM
Considering that the OP was a question about the acceptability of torture by governments, all of these personal defenses and scenarios just don't hold up.

How can anyone defend torture as government policy when there are so many examples of what happens when governments try to authorize and regulate what is essentially a criminal act. Abu Ghraib, Stanford prison experiment, and Jim Crow shows what happens when you allow the government to make criminal acts policy. It's worse than the mob trying to control drugs, it's impossible to keep it under control.
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04-27-2009 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Oh that's precious JC. Khmyer Rouge thugs were convicted of waterboarding, not mass murder, rape or any other horrors. They were tried and convicted of waterboarding. LOL.
Yes, and I'm quite aware of the atrocities having taught a number of Cambodian refugees in the past.
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01-29-2017 , 08:22 AM
Bumping this thread given Trump's raised this demon again.


EDIT: Just reread this thread. Man I was angry when I wrote all that. I'm nowhere near that passionate about it - but still believe I'm right about what I said.

Last edited by diebitter; 01-29-2017 at 08:38 AM.
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01-29-2017 , 06:15 PM
Demons are never destroyed or eradicated - just buried in shallow graves to be revived again when convenient.

PS> I miss Kudzu.
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01-29-2017 , 07:07 PM
Kudzu was great, one of a kind. Big Warren Zevon fan.
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02-02-2017 , 07:56 AM
Election was pure torture.
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02-03-2017 , 06:54 AM
for those against tortue, what about holding a guy in a small cell who's technically innocent before guilty? it's not torture as long as you give him a slimey sammich and a cardboard brownie? also, he sometimes gets mouthraped by his cellmate. but the cellmate gets punished after (sometimes) so that's ok to do to someone who has yet to have a trial ie the common criminal accused of murder.
cuz that sounds like torture to me.
how comes that's cool and standard but waterboarding is atrocious?
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02-19-2017 , 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Slamchest
for those against tortue, what about holding a guy in a small cell who's technically innocent before guilty? it's not torture as long as you give him a slimey sammich and a cardboard brownie? also, he sometimes gets mouthraped by his cellmate. but the cellmate gets punished after (sometimes) so that's ok to do to someone who has yet to have a trial ie the common criminal accused of murder.
cuz that sounds like torture to me.
how comes that's cool and standard but waterboarding is atrocious?
Gotta draw the line somewhere. Prison system doesn't work, ancap rabbit hole, blah, blah.
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