I forget what state are you in? I wonder if you are doing something that telegraphs NOOB. Maybe take a CLE?

I’ve heard they are pushing back a lot now because they have lost money in other areas. I’ve also been told that the way you send in your demand can show you know what you’re doing. Like the way it’s presented, the order of docs etc.

Now that you filed will they move on the amount?

I think trained to play games. Most insurers settle pre-complaint for peanuts.

After doing PI work for a while I noticed that I always went through the "adjuster process" (getting all the stuff together and preparing a demand letter and package, etc.) and then filed a complaint and was asked for all the same stuff by defense counsel, so I quit dealing with adjusters and filed a complaint.

Worked much better, at least more satisfying. I've been out of the game for a while, so maybe things have changed, but that's my experience.

I'm in PA.

I mean, if you "look me up", you could figure out I'm new without much effort. My name is on a decent number of civil cases in the counties in my area but I don't have tons of verdicts or an extensive resume due to only practicing 2 years. I think because of my setup I have far more experience than most my age/exp, but obviously I don't stack up to a 40 year+ graybeard who's been trying cases longer than I've been alive.

My work product is good. I was given access to about 4 dozen demand package templates from reddit lawyers page (which has been great), and synthesized the best elements from each one. I'm smart enough to realize I don't have to reinvent the wheel every time on my own and my own demand package improved tremendously from analyzing good lawyers demand packages.

I guess we'll see re: filing. In the auto case, no. But, they did call late Friday wanting to talk pre-answer, so we'll see.

In a separate case, I just had defense file PO's to try to boot my case. After receiving the PO's, adjuster calls saying, "Now that we filed PO's, I'll give you 12k as a lifeline offer, blah blah" I just hang up on him.

Sent in my brief. Adjuster calls back a week later offering 17.5k as a "last chance offer" lol. We decline and we have oral argument soon. I straight up told adjuster and counsel that I would rather lose than settle the case for less than its worth. They weren't pleased, but I think building a reputation as a guy who tries cases/fights will be worth it in the long run. Who knows though, I'm open to admitting I could be wrong on that.


Dealing with counsel >>>>>dealing with adjusters.

My relationships with opposing counsel has been relatively chill despite being on opposite sides, but adjusters treat everything like a scorched earth war. I've pretty much just stopped taking their phone calls tbh. I dont even want to waste an iota of a second listening to them low balling me on the phone over and over and over.

I actually thought about saying like, "don't bother calling me unless you can offer me at least "$XXXX" as a starting conversation point. However, I felt like it could possibly raise some ethical rules issues, as I have to communicate offers to my clients, so I didn't do it. I know I could get authority to deny certain offers below thresholds and what not, but still, I feel more comfortable just listening to the bad offer, taking it to CL, and then rejecting.

If that is true, it makes sense ime. I'm young and don't have the resume like a 40+year lawyer. It would make sense, and I get it if that is the strategy, i.e. prove you belong here, prove you can sit at the grownups table.

I hear from my defense friends that pre-litigation is 100% determined by Colossus for like 90% of cases. The rare cases, like say a pure emotional damage case, very high value case, or a self-employment high value case, get decided via a mixture of Colossus and some personal review of the file by necessary parties.

I have been trying to find good reading materials on Colossus to understand it better but haven't had much luck finding anything worthwhile. I wouldn't be shocked if Colossus weighs attorney experience into the value of the settlement or something like that and it could generate some lower offers to me.

But, that is pure speculation on my behalf.

Just want to say I appreciate this thread one more time. I don't really have a boss or great mentor to bounce ideas/thoughts about these administrative/non-legal ideas. Everyone's feedback/responses are really helpful to me.

Man, it’s crazy that the general public thinks you and I have the same job. Your career and mine as a biglaw transactional attorney have so little in common.

I did personal injury defense for a year-and-a-half. Something we constantly talked about was whether the plaintiff's attorney can and will go the distance. If it was a solo attorney, especially a younger guy like you, they would almost always be offered less because the thought was that they are hoping to settle the case quickly to "keep the lights on." Being very experienced for an attorney that has two years of experience means that you are still very inexperienced, and the insurance company and the defense attorneys know that. They know that the $15K you are going to have to spend to go to trial (badly) is daunting for a new attorney.

On the other hand, the biggest plaintiff's firm in FL had a rule that every attorney must go to trial at least three times in a year, or they incur a severe financial penalty for failing to do so. Everybody knew that those attorneys would be jones-ing for trials, and that firm tends to have very experienced attorneys, so they got higher offers.

You can't take personally that insurance companies are going to string you along somewhat. What you have to do is make strong initial demand letters with deadlines, make it clear that you will pursue a bad faith claim if they do not do what is right, and (most importantly) go to trial.

I know, right? Of my roommates in law school, 2 are PD's, 1 works in Texas in Oil&Gas and 1 works in biglaw in D.C. We have almost nothing in common between us, yet we are all lawyers.

I imagine it is like this in other executive professions though. Like, what does a thoracic surgeon have in common with a child's pediatrician? Probably not much outside of they're both M.D's and practice "medicine" broadly.


Thanks for the insight, Donk.

Yeah, I'm fully aware that I won't be taken seriously for many, many years. A guy I'm good friends with always says anyone with less than 15 years experience is "green" in trial work world, so I've got awhile for that benchmark.

I try not to take it personally, but it is hard. I try to think of it the same as poker, where someone who is pushing me around isn't doing it for personal reasons, but instead, they just think I'm weaker and they're attacking me as the weak money. Still, it is hard not to take it personal when we all put so much time into our careers and job. It is definitely something I have been trying to work on.

Little do these insurance companies know I'm a degen who doesn't care to spend the money. They don't realize I'll go HU4ROLLZ over these cases. (Kidding, sort of lol)


Also, after a rough few weeks, settled two cases this morning. One for 200k, one for 8k. Splitting fee on the bigger one, but still a nice injection of capital for my firm.

I think actually that explains a lot of this, you’re in PA. Was talking to a friend of mine that lives right over the border from MD in PA. He’s only licensed in MD. I didn’t think you could ask for such relatively small amounts because I was told there is no pain and suffering in PA. At least not for anything below $250k or something. Their premiums are supposed to be lower because such limited tort liability. Also during my last case towards the end I asked the Geico adjuster about PA and she said she worked PA for 8 years. She said most of the time it was attorneys fighting over fault and it wasn’t smaller cases.

How are you even justifying asking for such small amounts?

I have zero trials and look like a solo with maybe 10 settled cases or so. When I submit with $2500 in meds I can usually get $6500 or so in the end. So that’s my definition of small. When I see you say soft tissue with an elective surgery I’m not picturing a case with more than $10k in meds. My understanding is you’re supposed to only get the medical bills in PA in general.

For limited tort, right. But, if you have full tort, you can get pain and suffering. I don't do limited tort cases unless they qualify for the full tort exception (serious injury, tortfeasor DUI)

There are a few firms who do limited tort and I refer my limited tort cases to them.

How do you get full tort?

If this keeps coming up, maybe just ask your client? Say something like they will probably offer x, but I could tell them your floor is Y, non negotiable. That way I don’t have to waste your time calling you with their ridiculous offers.

Then say to adjuster my client has instructed me not to accept any offer below Y.

edit: I meant you say this after they make first offer then say do you have anything in light of this?

Except as a negotiating tactic setting a floor like that sucks. I mean maybe no adjuster will ever offer above your floor, but if there is such a chance you’re precluding it from occurring.

Yeah actually realized I misread what he said, I think. Originally I read the post as not even discussing the adjuster first offer. I generally agree, but I think it can depend on what kind of tone you take with the adjuster. If you say look there is no way my client is accepting just the meds so thanks for your time but I’ll be filing a complaint, some adjusters appreciate not playing games because they are busy too. It’s just being realistic and soo far off from a real floor I think it doesn’t change actual negotiations and buys you credibility. I’ve been told their database has notes on attorneys so if they put one in that says he was polite and didn’t waste my time, couldn’t hurt.

In PA, you purchase an auto policy with full tort. The "allure" of limited tort is super cheap policies but if you get in an accident, it limits your recovery significantly. We are also no-fault, so your meds get paid regardless.




Yeah, my post was a little unclear. I've heard from other lawyers re: negotiating with adjusters that they go through the following:

1. Send demand package
2. Hear first offer

2a. If first offer is reasonable, continue negotiating
2b. If first offer is unreasonable, file/tell adjuster don't bother calling back unless your offer can rise by "$XX.XX" or "don't bother to call me unless you're offering at least 20k to get started negotiating."

I'm not a huge fan of 2b because I think setting that floor just isn't a great negotiation tactic, like Sam said. That being said, some very respected guys who practice around me do that all the time, so I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong here.

I think you're right about the database, Dave. I've settled a few cases with a regional insurance company and on the third case, the adjuster made a comment/let it slip she had looked us up in their database. I'm always polite and professional. I'll never yell at an adjuster. Usually, I'll just hang up and then get mad on my own lol

My only concern was an ethical concern, i.e I have a duty to take offers to CL's. I'm not really undertaking that duty if I say, "I'll flat out reject any offer below XXXX" w/o consulting with CL. I know lots of lawyers get authority from CL to reject below a number, and I'm sure that is ethical/fine, but I don't have a caseload currently that prevents me from making a single phone call to a CL to talk about an offer, so I don't do that yet.

Don't give a floor, don't give a range. It's just negotiating 101.

So just so I’m clear, is it like there are two pools? If you only have a limited tort policy and someone else is at fault and hits you, you only get limited recovery? If you have a full plan, it’s just normal recovery?

Related, any idea what the percentages are in the state as to how many have each kind? The way I was told, I didn’t think full existed. I think because my friend lives in a rural area he was saying everyone has limited. Very low risk. They also don’t have a police dept or fire station (another county responds but technically isn’t obligated, state troopers roll around). But really good schools. :shrug:


Just to add, a lot of the reason I said what I said was it sounds like the calls are getting to you on a personal/emotional level. I was thinking of a strategy to minimize this effect on you, because you don’t want to get tilted. I’m very aware of this kind of thing and part of why I don’t want to go full time law practice. It’s only been two years and you’re already mad. You’re not a robot.

I think over time you will develop terminology/language that signals you’re serious when you talk to adjusters. I had an adjuster say something like “guys on billboards” to me once so sometimes I say I’m not one of those guys on billboards. Last time I said I’m sure you see people all the time who see this as an opportunity, she cut me off and said say no more I know what you mean, and said yes not my client here. For my last one I knew my client had witness/depo experience as part of her job, so I said if I go to trial she’s a dream client. I’m already talking about litigation posture to the adjuster. Just my experience.

Crushed the MBE, below average on the MPT and MEE. But that apparently is the recipe for success, passed the NY bar.

Ayyyyyy, congrats man counselor!

Nice work

Congrats!

Congrats Cohiba, that's a great feeling.

Thanks guys. The best feeling, lots of pressure relieved.

Congrats! It won't seem like it now, but years from now you'll realize it's like being licensed to print money. Have fun!

Congrats Cohiba!!!

I actually sued USAA for their PIP fraud and went down to San Antonio and took the depositions of their adjusters. It was hilarious. There was actually a class action a guy was getting set up in Oregon, but apparently had to let go for personal health issues. I got some good stuff from those guys.