Had my first unemployment hearing yesterday. Absolutely crushed OP on cross bc OP straight up lied for the first 5 minutes of testimony. I actually thought my plan was blown lol, bc OP started testifying about never receiving notification for a meeting/people forging OP's signature on documents/some other bs, and I didn't say anything. Judge asked if I had any rebuttal evidence, in the middle of OP's direct exam (????), so I just said we planned on introducing it. Thought that might have tipped OP off, but nope, kept running mouth.

Had direct texts and emails from OP to my Client about the meetings/signatures/etc. At the end of the cross, OP just said, "I don't feel like answering your questions anymore".

So, I thought we had a sure win. Turns out, we probably lost lmao. Standard is "willful misconduct", and the caselaw is pretty clear that you skipping mandatory functions is not "willful" if you didn't know about it. OP claims confusion over dates/claims didn't understand microsoft word, so OP thought when reports were being edited for grammar, they were actually forging OP's signature/information (lol). I tried to cross OP on it and get OP to admit that these were ridiculous ideas, and it sort of worked, but it was just hard to get a direct response.

Sounds like we are going to lose though, from what I've heard, since OP may not have "willfully" committed misconduct at her job.

Also, tons of HIPAA issues at play in this hearing. We couldn't divulge Client names, obviously, but it made it very hard to explain some of OP's reprimands, as they were for badtalking fellow employees to outside clients. OC went ballistic when the reprimands were allowed to be heard, since OC had no idea who client was/obv hearsay/client's bias couldn't be examined. I said they weren't hearsay since it was only providing notice of the event, not the truth of the event, and even if they were, it fell under res gestate, "telling the story", which is admissible in PA (lol i know). Brought the rules and judge agreed with me, but I have to say, if I had been in Judge's seat, I probably would of ruled against me on that issue tbh.

Don't know if anyone has run into those issues and has good ways to get around it. It's so hard, bc I didn't want to open the door, but without those reprimands, our story of termination makes no sense.

tl;dr: unemployment is really hard to beat in PA.

Unemployment hard to beat anywhere. My father told me a story early in his career where he represented a business contesting unemployment benefits because the employee was fired for taking his excrement out of the toilet and smearing it all over the walls of the bathroom. The place of business lost.

A while back I had a case with an employee of the nonprofit I worked for back then where she quit but then filed for unemployment. Only time I did one of these. There were emails from her saying she's found better opportunities and such. She put on the water works at the hearing (they do them in a conference room here) and won. She claimed hostile work environment it might have been, the CEO was known for being a dick.

I guess they're a lot more relaxed with this stuff because you pay into the unemployment system so you're really just getting back what you put in.

FWIW, being a lawyer was a heavy contributor to trying some suicidal ****, so I quit abruptly and don't plan on going back. Caseload split to others if you are concerned about that. The only real bar is paying yearly dues + late payment and then some CLE in a time they assign. So +1 to regretting loans/non-users of the JD, but I am glad to really know the law, and always viewed knowledge as its own reward as cliche as that sounds. So I guess I have that. I just could not competently deal with clients while mentally incompetent.

My 2L house gave birth to a guy with a suspended license (mult. felonies), an inactive license and a 7x bar failer. That T3-life

Glad things are gong better, sorry to hear they were so rough.

Umm, can you explain this a little?

What are you gonna do now instead?

I always say a legal education has a lot of value on it's own, unlike a lot of other things that kinda pigeon hole you to certain paths that are hard to break out of. Your perception of the world around you will always be different now. For example, I tell friends, when they get pulled over for speeding a lot of people go into panic mode and freak out. I'm thinking about what court am I going to be in, who the judge is, where do I need to send my request for calibration docs etc.

I lived with two other guys 2L year.

Guy 1: Did best in school, passed the bar first, got a decent job with a big PI firm, then became a poster boy for the opioid epidemic, tried to pass some fake scripts, then moved onto burglary and even more burglary while on bond. He has been suspended indefinitely from the practice of law.

Guy 2 (me): Did 2nd best in school, passed the bar 2nd (it is basically ingrained to point out I delayed taking it rather than failing on 1st attempt). My license technically is suspended b/c inactive does not exist, I was just trying to distinguish that I could rather easily get mine back whereas Guy 1 couldn't.

Guy 3: Technically should not have graduated (too many <C hrs) but they let him for some reason. Not ever real interested in law but cultural and familial pressure pushed him to law school and a pattern of taking the bar w/o studying over and over. This week for the 1st time ever he admitted the true number of failures to me, when discussing another upcoming attempt. Was unsure b/c he has moved around the country a lot and never attempted the AR bar.

Guy 3 is my best friend for life, Guy 1 makes me really sad due to too many phone convos when drugged out of his mind.

ETA:
No set long-term plans but just helping my wife now on the bus'n side (invoicing/collections) and nuts and bolts (drafting, filing, calendaring, running, etc.) parts of her business and spending loads of time with my daughter (far and away best part of all of this as a suicidally depressed dad is a pretty ****ty one ime). Ultimately, the law was more politicking and less logically winning arguments then I anticipated. Long-term I might pursue some attorney services ideas I have or focus solely on appeal work.

i know a lot of lawyers who make decent money just doing contract work. you can take long periods of time off if you need, and the work itself shouldn't be too stressful. might be something to look into.

one of my neighbors growing up worked big law for a while doing litigation. 5 years ago she "retired" to contract work (mostly doc review) and absolutely loves it. it's boring, sure, but the flexibility is great.

overall, it sounds like you made a good decision. depression, alcoholism, and other substance abuse run deep in our profession for a reason.

Yeah seconded, contract work isn't terrible and minor PI etc might just stumble your way every now and then. I don't even try and I'm usually working a couple small cases at any given time.

The cost of child care is almost the same as working a normal job, so not paying for that has value.

Update: Lost my unemployment hearing.

Just a quick recap, employee missed a mandatory meeting. employee had other infractions prior, but this was final straw for employer. Employee claims was never notified of this meeting. We were able to establish that 1. the meeting was scheduled for same day/time/place as it had been for last 9 months; 2. schedule wasn't changing till the next week; and 3. employee replied to the email of schedule change saying it was good with employee's schedule

Opinion, which overturned prior ruling and conferred benefits, said that trier of fact found employee's testimony credible because by replying to the email about the schedule, it shows employee was confused about the schedule. (I kid you not, that's what it says). Literally, the reply was, "Okay, sounds good to me" and trier of fact interpreted that to mean that employee was legitimately confused about the schedule change.

I'm not shocked we lost, since the bar is so high, but I'm pretty shocked our "smoking gun" ended up being the piece of evidence that won it for the other side. I can't think of one thing I would have done differently to change the outcome.

Fwiw, I just found out yesterday that employee's sister-in-law is a state congressman...from this district...and may have/possibly knows the trier of fact from prior employment. Not saying it's rigged, but you know, yeah....

No reason for us to appeal either imo. Opinion is written (incorrectly), but soundly. Entire opinion was based on testimony and credibility, so I can't see how we could overturn it for abuse. GG us.

I guess you win some you think you should lose and you lose some you think you should win

edit: Just so I don't sound so heartless, we found out employee was fraudulently billing after termination. Had been double billing days employee wasn't actually present, which happened to overlap with the day employee missed. Wasn't allowed to bring it up at hearing, obviously, since it technically wasn't the reason employee was terminated (found afterwards). Employee is a truly ****ty person who caught a seriously technically lucky break here is all.

You win some, you lose some. There's always another case.

Passed with way more room to spare than I expected . Easily the most nerve wracking night of my life last night knowing results out this morning. I'm sweating tremendously hard for my girlfriend who took same bar though though she hasn't answered my texts yet And she loses her job if she fails ...anyway i hope I can contribute to the thread in next few years as a solo with a lot of family help who will inevitably **** up a lot.

Very nice ☺️

Congrats mutigers.

congrats man, hope the gf passes as well.

Whew she passed too thankfully . She is a public defender and I need that damn healthcare lol

Grats man!

Nice, congrats man! Still two months until my results, lol.

Jesus

My buddy sat for Virginia and doesn't get his till October (and had to wear a suit in like 90 degree heat wtf)... i didn't realize some jurisdictions were so brutal

the lose the job sweat is so brutal. happy for you and the gf. my brother was in same spot, working as a public defender and lost job if he failed.

Don't forget they have to wear sneakers so they don't make noise, congrats.

Didn't realize public defenders were so harsh. I think I heard here you are a clerk until bar passage and then you can apply for full position.

Got my first Oral Arguments next week on some preliminary objections I filed to a Complaint.

OP, who is unrepresented, called our voicemail at work about the issue, and left a pretty mean voicemail calling me a **** lol. I think it's hilarious, and I recorded it, so I'm thinking about slipping it into my oral arguments. It's not really relevant, but it just destroys his character. Again, clearly not relevant to service issues and some procedural PO's I made, but it seems like a total freeroll that can only help us. Just deciding how to weave it in lol

Thoughts?

I don't want to piss off the Judge, but I mean, this guy is such an idiot for leaving it on a voicemail where it can be recorded, I'm thinking I just have to burn him with it.

I think you're playing with fire if you try to use it as part of your oral argument on a procedural issue.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing it up after the argument as an aside.

"Your honor I did want to put something else on the record. A few days ago I received a voicemail from the Plaintiff at my office with some pretty unflattering language, bordering on verbal abuse. It wasn't threatening, and obviously it doesn't pertain to the motion being heard today, but I'd just like to put on the record that I would appreciate if Mr. XXXX would refrain from doing that in the future."

Don't do it. It will only hurt your argument and the judge will think you are a whiny *****.

Pro se people are expected to be terrible. You are expected to be a professional.