see I actually disagree pretty strongly with this.

I actually think Wookie can learn a lot from leoslayer. I mean the way you guys say it, its like you imagine leoslayer holding his fiance at knifepoint stating "take my name or else" when infact I think leoslayer demonstrates a great example of being able to communicate to his future wife that there is a certain issue that is important to him, however irrational it may seem to us, and then work out a happy compromise.

His wife agreed to take his name and he agreed to convert to his wife's religion and there aren't any residual issues. Leoslayer acquiesced more on the religion front as compared to Wookie while Leoslayer's wife relented more on the name thing than K.

I stumbled on this thread last night based on the name and had some pretty strong feelings about it. Not really about the name changing stuff, which outside of the kids I don't really find consequential at all. Mostly there was just a recurring question, "why are these people getting married?"

Reviewing this thread from the perspective of an outside observer:

- There is no sex.

- It's currently a long-distance relationship. (I went through a phase like this with my wife, but it was years before we were married. Going through things long-distance at what is in some sense the most intense phase of the relationship thus far seems not good to me.)

- The description in this thread makes it sound like Wookie's desires are definitely of secondary importance in this relationship. The only counterexample I saw presented was birth control - but again, there's no sex, so this is a purely notional compromise. Among other things, how do you think that will hold up following the marriage when her family starts inquiring with great regularity about pregnancy? It seems unlikely that she had such strong Catholic anti birth control feelings in a family that didn't. Who wins in a Wookie vs. her family and religion fight? Based on this thread I know which side I'd bet on.

- She seems obsessed with seeming like her own woman and having equal "status." A good deal of this status appears to extend to purely academic status -- she's not happy with an industry job where she is the main breadwinner, which one would think is a pretty big conventional marker of status and independence, but specifically needs to finish her Ph.D. You want to be an academic, which often means taking just about any job you can find in the early stages, and relatively frequently jumping around. Do you think this woman is going to be cool being someone who follows her husband around like that? Are you willing to make substantial concessions in your own career in the name of the two-body problem? If she does flip and start wanting kids pretty quickly (which she likely will), is she cool being the dominant caregiver because you're unlikely to be around much pre-tenure?

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I mean, I'm sure you have your reasons and all, but man this whole thing looks bad on paper.

amoeba, there was no compromise offered, or even considered. Had there been, this whole discourse probably doesn't happen, and leo isn't called a douche.

It was, according to the information we have been given, an ultimatum, plain and simple; leo has been pretty vocal in the fact that it was a "my way or the highway" situation, not a fulcrum for compromise. And, if it is as leo presents it, Wook can learn from him...namely, how not to let one petty idea become larger than a relationshiip one claims to care deeply about saving.

When did that happen? I admit I've been busy, but I didn't see this happen here.
All I know is what I can glean from leo and what he writes, but it seems that a relationship of the kind he was mentioning had far deeper issues than the name. A real and committed couple, especially one of the length and depth leo claims, will rarely winnow down simply to a one-issue pivot for break-up, especially one of such relative modern unimportance. "Deal breakers" or "ultimatums" are merely indicators of other issues that need to be explored.

Maybe the issues from his acquiescence to her religious requests, for their children, were still bubbling under. One's spiritual life is usually of more importance than the name one of the couple decides to use to "brand" themselves. Some religions, after all, pretty much brainwash their adherents into thinking that the eternal souls of their children are at stake based on whether they're sprinkled or dunked. Whether they really are or not doesn't matter; it is vitally important to them. On the surface, I agree that leo seems to be making a pretty big compromise on his part.

But I don't know how important leo's religion is to him. We know one of his grandfathers was a Methodist minister of some note. But that really doesn't mean anything. Religion may mean nothing to him. It certainly seems to mean less to him, from what I can tell in his writing, than the perception others have of him. And too much concern about that certainly makes it difficult, if not impossible, to deal with the complexities of an evolving relationship.

I pretty much agree with everything amoeba has written. Leoslayer's attitude toward the name thing is not that shocking. I mean we live in a country where it has been an accepted custom for the woman to change her name when she gets married. Yeah it is a little surprising to me that he wanted to marry a doctor from another country and then expected her to embrace changing her name. However, that was the expectation he had based on his world view of what marriage should be, and based on his old-fashioned traditional beliefs. (and let's face it, he's not the only one with old-fashioned beliefs in this thread!)

It may be that those of us who grew up in homes where there was re-marriage, different sets of parents... kids with different names, etc.... are more sensitive to the name issue and wanting to create a family unit that goes by the same name. Who knows. I just don't think it's that surprising given that we live in a country where this has been the convention. I don't see why he's being called a douche. Leoslayer just sounds like a lot of the guys I grew up with who still embrace this rather old-fashioned notion of the girl taking the guys name. It's becoming less common in the professional world for sure. But everybody has their deal breakers. oops (haha, guess not!) Anyway, I think Amoeba is correct in this thread.

I'm glad gumpzilla made that last post, I didn't even know about these other issues and definitely feel that they should be addressed ahead of the name thing.

I think in a marriage, its more important how you arrive at the solutions for these issues, how easily you arrive at these solutions than whether the final solution is completely balanced.

I think that Wookie and K are mature enough that they know what they are doing with respect to the other issues. They have been dating for awhile and they were prepared for this separation. Being in a PhD program from the same school, both are well aware of the job situation and lifestyle that goes with academia, and the challenges ahead of them. I think it speaks very well of Wookie that he cares so much about what his fiance wants and the issues that are most important to her. I've always thought she is very lucky. Hope she appreciates him as much as we do!

I just think it's kind of funny that he and K have such old-fashioned notions of marriage and sex (not saying there's anything wrong with it ), but then he came down so hard on leoslayer for his traditional views of marriage and last names.

(I'm dying to know what Wookie's last name is aren't you? What if it's a really ugly last name . then maybe we'd all go Ahhhh. I get it now.)

I think you're reading too much into things, man. We've talked plenty about careers and addressed all the questions you raised. Yes, with proper respect for each of us.

It's not leo's old fashioned views on last names. I mean, all else being equal, I'd rather K just took my name. What got me riled up was his complete obstinace, his apparent disregard for his wife's feelings on the matter, his unwillingness to even consider reasons she might profess for her desire to keep it, and the lightness with which he was willing to walk away from the relationship over the issue. I didn't take issue with any of the other guys who said they felt strongly about their wives taking their names.

I see. It is possible that had his wife refused to take his name and had he walked away from her at that time, that he might have missed her and reconsidered the whole ultimatum thing after a couple of lonely months. We really don't know. He does sound a little obstinate about the whole thing, but hey that's a guy for ya ! Haha. Like I said already, he sounds just like a bunch of guys that I know. They talk old-fashioned and macho, but in the end they are usually willing to compromise and give up a lot more than what they initially thought. From what leoslayer has told me, he did a lot of compromising and a lot of sacrificing in his relationship. I don't think we are getting the full picture of his relationship with ex-wife.

katy about her being from a diff country. she was married once before me and she took his name. she changed it back to her maiden name after her divorce. all of her relatives changed their name when they got married so her keeping her name at that point was against the norm.

hey im sorry you guys dont like it. but for me it was a big deal. i was willing to go her way on just about every issue. im sure wookie that at some point there will be an issue that you wont be willing to compromise on.

Maybe so. On the other hand, you're posting in this thread that you feel your opinions on something of such foundational importance as the wedding registry were not being properly respected. I think it's telling that the things that you believe you've extracted concessions on are, by and large, in the nebulous future; when confronted with things which require decisions now, from what you've described things sound quite different.

Why are you getting married now, as opposed to say in a year or two after some of these career issues and living near each other again have been put in place? It sounds like you're planning on waiting to have kids so there's no hurry there. If the reasons are things like "why not?" or "I'd really like to have some sex," I'd suggest those are bad reasons. EDIT: "I love this woman" also qualifies as a bad reason, as it doesn't really explain why now instead of later.

What you find important for yourself is, of course, up to you.

What I take issue with is your assertion that most men look at husbands that have wives with a different last name as being "a pussy over it or at the least see you as emasculated".

I probably won't be able to explain this well, but I think it's an important component of attractiveness before marriage to be willing to walk away, therefore it's OK to have a reasonable deal-breaker.

If his wife had been unwilling to budge on the issue, then they have to come to a compromise, decide that marriage is not for them, or to go their separate ways.

It would be neanderthal if he were making the decision for her, "We WILL get married and you WILL take my name." It's not the case here, because she has a choice to accept his position on this issue or walk away herself.

In contrast, after marriage, you've both made the commitment to work through whatever issues life brings your way.

Well said!