Don't ask me what it has to do with Kanye. I am not the one that brought up the producing.

I really doubt how large Kanye would be without his controversial antics. Most everyone I knew never heard of Kanye until his anti-Bush speech.

I was only going on about how I don't think that kanye is a well-devoloped artist, and is lacking basic fundamentals in musical understanding. That is not a subjective opinion. The objective perspective is clear if you think along 3 basic lines.

Good singing
Keeping time
Keeping in key.

He fails on 2 out of 3. Not saying much because any jackass can hold a rhythm.

I am also very liberal on my seemingly narrow definition of music. I only ask for the bare minimum (the 3 items listed), where many other musicians hold much much higher standards. To see how controversial "good" and "bad" music is defined, listen to two serious musicians go at it for a while. There is also no doubt that it is nearly impossible to be completely objective. In attempting to be objective, I am attempting to influence my own subjective thinking. However, keep in mind that my idea of objective thinking may be different than what another may think. For example, I have heard very good musicians call Eric Clapton a genius, and others call him too simplistic. Some people may call Jimmy Page too sloppy, while others may call him a revolutionary. As long as both sides of the argument are well thought out, I am in no position to dispute either claim.

Please note that I did not call this thread "Lady Gaga appreciation." My interest really started with seeing her on the Grammy's. Up until that point I didn't know much about her, so I figured a person of her performance level should deserve a second look. Analyzing the parts of the whole helps me determine how much or how little I should appreciate her art.

The general thinking seems to be that I am simply trying to eddify her work, but that is not the case at all. Just because I may like an artist at first, doesn't mean that I will when I start to dig into the make up of the work I am seeking to understand.

Are we clear?

Basically, if you are going to go ahead and take this thread as some clitoris sucking, then you are failing to see the point of it. Note that I bashed into a song that the previaling opinion on this thread is one of her better songs. If you are going to come in here and insult her on the basis that she is a gimmick and she sucks simply because you don't like her style of music, then come in here and compare her to other musicains, then you ought to be able to back up your claims beyond saying "they suck."

Nevermind, I forgot you were leveling. Carry on.

Today's pop music is designed to sell ringtones. I also think a lot of the talent is in the dudes making the beats. I'm not saying the beats are ground breaking, but most of them are simple and catchy which appeal to most of the unwashed masses.

Is this thread serious? You guys are discussing Lady GaGa's product as music?

As a side-note to my real gripe, this is to whoever said Kanye "produces" his own stuff: look at the credits on any of his albums. They are not hard to find. Go to allmusic.com for a start. He's got at least one co-producer on each track, usually 2+, and on his more recent albums, usually 3+. Remember Avril Lavigne? Remember how she was all hyped up in the media for "writing her own songs"? She didn't write ****: #1 there are co-writers credited to all her tunes for those who wish to look, and #2 she was listed as a cowriter without royalties. MEANING, Avril's "writing" credit was purely aesthetic, a tool for the marketing people to sell her image. Parallelism?

Kanye is the "independent self-made dude" of hip-hop. How many aspiring producers have bought a rig because of this guy, hoping to get famous? How many young kids have bought all his albums off his "I made my life" image? It's MARKETING. He has VERY LITTLE to do with his "own music".

Asserting that a frontman for a POP MUSIC act writes their own stuff is inherently absurd. Pop music is not music, it is a product. Pop music is a commodity; it is shaped by MANY people, including but not limited to: the sales department, marketing department, label prez, label prez's daughter (who is also the head A&R rep), media moguls (who will be selling these people), people with beef, people with chicken, people who have nothing to do with the music industry but have money and know people, etc, etc, etc.

Agree. We can all say that **** about any band in the history of music.

fyp

Richard Wagner didn't have a marketing team behind him brah. Just a brain and some theory.

Your full of yourself. Name one musician since the invention of a recording device for sale that hasn't been promoted, had their music messed with, and had to make compromises in their work?

I think it is sad that you would bring up Wagner of all people, considering that he wrote the Ring Cycle, which is a 24 hour opera, that was never once ran in continuum, and outside of one opera house, was never shown in it's entirety. So, yes, he did have to make compromises in order to sell his art.

There are at least 50 playing in my city on a nightly basis. However you've never heard of them, because they don't sell records.

You're insinuating that art = commodity. This is a ridiculous notion. A piece of artistic music is considered complete and technical if it meets certain standards of theoretical musicality and emotional conveyance. Wagner meets these criteria. ****ing Lady GaGa does not. Do you really want to argue this?

Wagner wrote the Ring Cycle and it's pretty awesome, although nothing compared to the beauty that is Tannhauser. The fact that it never got played by PEOPLE OTHER THAN HIM has no bearing on its beauty or artistic merit. Writing primal, sex-based, rhythmic cluster****s of sound that appeal to people's libidos, for the sole purpose of being sold for money != creating an incredible piece of music for its own sake.

By the way your name is one of my favorite songs.

i think its prolly the occult symbolism and demon worship.

or maybe its the slight possibility that she has something down there?

regardless, i am TURNED ON

If you closed your eyes, would you consider her work to be music? I think the definition of popular music has been changed by MTV. It has become more of a visual experience.
In his retirement, Ingmar Bergman would watch music videos without the sound, just to see how they were put together. I suspect he would find Lady Gaga rather amusing.
I don't know if it's simply more cheap kindling on the funeral pyre of a dying culture, but this will never be my idea of music.

Someone gets it!

You will appreciate this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jbya4kxC6E

heheh cool. I think I saw this a while ago, but it's always good seeing again.

Loved these guys back in the day and wish they would have given us much, much more.

lol daveT is owning all of you people. so hard.

lol @ kanye. he was a nobody until he told everyone that george bush didn't care about black people.

Gaga is SUCH a breath of fresh air in pop music. Originality, talent, and her attitude. A+.
She even admits that it's not just her. She has her own team of designers/writers/creatives, the Haus of Gaga.

Nobody in popular music is doing everything themselves, but for the most part it's her vision that has been molded and shaped to what it is now.

I realize this thread is a level but it's really well-done, and I refuse to leave people in doubt. Let's get literal.

Goddamit.

daveT, are you leveling me?

Here is my disclaimer: I, HobbyHorse, do - in all sincerity - like Lady Gaga.

I like Kanye, but his early producing for Kweli(Quality) is my personal favorite.

I like Lady GaGa more than I like HobbyHorse.

Letterman approves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSEST-oQH68

that is all

I think Lady Gaga is the most interesting performer around today.

Reminds me of when Madonna was good.

She writes good songs, can sing well live, can play and is committed to complete performance.

What is really interesting is she obviously has self-esteem issues about her appearance that inform her videos and live performance, and possibly fuels her ambition and obvious drive to excel.

She's going to be an interesting celeb to watch, and I do hope she gets to be the best of herself.

i lol'd.....but lets not start that again.

Ima call Hoobyhorse Lady HaHa from now on (but only if she likes it)

HobbyHorse

You're doing it wrong.