Didn't know we were debating. I asked for some further explanation as to why you think Mooney is racist. But.. okay. Let's.

I never said such reasoning was exclusionary, and in fact mentioned why I thought Mooney might grow tiresome. One doesn't have to want one's comedy in "homogenized bits" to dislike Mooney. But many of those who choose not to think too deeply about things will come to such a similar and unfocused conclusion. Crib it along the same lines as "Not all conservatives are stupid people, but all the stupid people I know are conservatives" argument.

Hmm. I can see how I may have been open to misinterpretation on that, which I have to take responsibility for. No, a person can be both a comedian and a racist. To say Mooney is funny, therefore he is not a racist, would be incorrect.

Just as it would be equally incorrect, as you did, to say he is a racist, therefore he is not funny,

Art, though, has to be taken as a valid view, even if one doesn't agree with it. Often, broad strokes or exaggeration have to be utilized to help the artist achieve the effect he's looking for.

Sure, there can be racist comedians. That doesn't mean Mooney is one simply because he decides to hammer on points you don't particularly like, or cut too close to home. It doesn't mean he's guiltless, either. Neither point was said nor implied. That fact is irrelevant as to whether or not someone is racist. But it does explain how someone can be construed as racist.

And that is a subjective value judgement. You've made yours, and seem confident in voicing it loudly, but seem unable to logically back it up, except to hide behind insult and a reality that you mistakenly seem to think is self-evident.

And quite the contrary of thinking there has to be "comedy or reality", comedy is reality, or, rather, a mirror of it.

All humor is rooted in the truth. The truth is sometimes painful to come to terms with. So rather than do so, some hide behind defensive name-calling, labeling someone a racist when they simply don't have a stomach for the truth. I don't know that you do. I didn't think that about you at all, really, until you trotted out your fevered little ego in your response. Now I kinda wonder.

A comedian's job (or any artist, really) is to hold up certain things for observation, point out new perspectives. We live in a what is still, in many ways, a racist society, so, especially if one is a minority, one's view will probably be askew to that of the majority. You want to paint that as hatred, I say it's simply a perspective you simply don't (or don't wish to) understand. Blame my bleeding heart sensibilities, if you wish.

I could, in fact, say such a view makes you a racist, and some would. But that would be as imprecise and wrong-headed as your claims for Mooney. For the record, I don't believe you are.

Wow. I thought you might have more game than that. Of all appeals to some kind of authority, the most pathetic is buddying up to those in whom one finds agreement, in hopes that the amplified resonance will achieve some kind of weird closure.

That's amateur time, A-rod. You disappoint.

So referring to "white people" continuously makes one racist? Does his (now discontinued) use of the word n*gger do the same? Here's a news flash: as I have mentioned, he does almost exclusively racial humor, and that does get old. But it doesn't mean he hates white people, or he's a self-hating black man. It doesn't mean he's perpetuating a false stereotype, or doing anything but making an observation that many, black and white (the show I watched was mixed) find funny. I don't see any real hatred in it. In fact, like Pryor, he brings certain things to to the surface for more heady exploration, and the fact that everyone can laugh at it helps it go down better.

If you are that deeply offended by racial humor, then don't listen. I can respect that. But don't say that racial humor, in and of itself, is racist, any more than Ice Cube or David Allen Coe or Axl Rose are racist for bringing up such points in exaggerated fashion. And don't say it's not funny just because you perceive it as racist. Artistic license is not a validation for racism, but it does alleviate the pretense of moral outrage being used to decry a piece of art on any but it's own aesthetic terms.

Think Birth of a Nation.

To say something is "terrible" just because you have made the value judgement that it is racist is, in many cases and in this one, a misapplied rationalization. Maybe you two are just a couple of over-sensitive crackers.

I haven't read any of these interviews, but I've googled the subject and found nothing to indicate he is as hateful towards whites as you say. Seems like he's "on" all the time. The only thing I found to really reinforce the notion you have is his blather about "Black people can't be racist", due to his definition of racism being rooted in systemic usage rather than personal feelings, or some such. A load of crap, that.

That said, so f*ckin' what? Is the music of Wagner any less astounding because he was a violently nasty anti-Semite? Is Lynyrd Skynyrd less valid because they used to wave a confederate flag? Should Elvis Costello still pay for his usage of a racial slur in talking about Ray Charles? What about Brother Dave Gardner, or D.W. Griffith, or Michael Richards, for that matter?

People are flawed, and artists are no exception.

As I said, I think Mooney is a notch below the comedians most mentioned here. But I think he has merit. I think he's funnier than Mitch Hedburg, who seems to make some (although, now that I think about it, most are gen-X white guys) spew their trousers. The video I watched, the one mkenya suggested, I found far more funny than offensive. And he was an equal opportunity needler, treading on black folks as hard as white.

Then again...I think white people are pretty funny.

Keep writing all you want, Kudzu. It has no bearing on my thoughts on Mooney. The guy is obviously a racist. Not his act. Paul Mooney. And his act is not at all funny. You like him, bully for you. <shrug>

Why he's even mentioned in this thread is beyond me. He's a 3rd rate comedian.

And I think you would know me better by now than to call me an over-sensitive cracker.

Jesus, do I have to put up a little smiley face every time I make a comment like that?

Kinda underlines my "over-sensitive cracker" suspicions, though.

I can't help it. I'm sensitive. And white.

This tangent reminds me of this Louis CK bit.

kudzu, I read about a few paragraphs of what you wrote before deciding not to go further.

I did not say Mooney is not funny. I have seen his "performances" and many people laugh at him so there are a lot of people who think he is "funny".

As Dom said, it's not like I can't laugh at black comedians. I used to watch Def Comedy Jam when I was like 11 years old (vying for street cred here lol). But Mooney has this constant bitter look to his face and you really get this aura of HATRED from him that does not ooze from guys like Rock, Chappelle, et al who incorporate "white people uptight/black people like to dance!" into their routines. Though I think Rock is a lot less funny than most do.

You also said I "choose not to think too deeply about things" and then attacked conservatives in the first paragraph. If you want people to keep responding to you you may want to curb this habit.

But in a light-hearted thread like this where people recommend "good comedians" I think it's due diligence to let people know about a certain comedian's infatuation with race relations. Mooney's act aligns somewhat with comedy. I mean it is a witty observation to say that the news media obsesses about a white girl gone missing. As a white person, I also think that is retarded and we should be able to laugh at our society for being so out-of-whack. But mostly he's about social commentary - much of which is depressing, not funny.

A bit embarrassed to admit, but I grew up listening to Andrew Dice Clay's The Day The Laughter Died. His schtick that made him a star is pretty awful, but this one album is genius in his ability to interact with a small night club crowd. I would definitely put it up there as top tier in comedy albums.

It's one of your endearing traits.

The sensitivity, not the caucasianity. Then this will hardly be a reasoned and objective response, then, will it?
You are right, you did not. You merely commented on his perceived racism. I disagree with that assessment, as well as Dom's assessment that he is without aesthetic merit.

As stated, I do not think that this perceived racism (or anyone else's)should be considered reason to discount the man's work, entirely. In fact, even if you are correct in that assessment (that he is a racist), I still think it is superfluous to the discussion. If, um, you read the rest of the post, you will see just that sentiment.

I see you may have just been warning the mkenya, which makes sense. I did the same with Brother Dave Gardner, and others have warned of possible offensiveness of other comedians. Fair enough. I felt it was also fair to ask for further explanation as to why you felt this way.

I don't agree with the whole "aura" thing, I feel like that's just a part of his schtick. I figure he's also one of those guys who just looks like a douchebag, regardless of whether he is or not. Let's call it the Jay Cutler effect. Throw in some of his admittedly explosive material, you've got real potential for such an effect.

I actually thought about that when I was watching that piece. At the risk of sounding racist myself, I was struck by how similar Mooney was, in appearance and countenance, to Khalid Muhammad, the controversial former spokesman for the Nation of Islam, who had to leave the NOI because of his inflammatory nature. That's right...dude was such a racist bastard, even Farrakhan gave him the boot. That's a pretty heady achievement, there.

Also, in googling the subject, I was struck by just how Mooney was considered racist on both sides of the debate. Some black folks think he's a self-hating black man who needlessly reinforces negative stereotypes, and some white folks think he's a fire-breathing militant and defiler of white women. Anyone who is pissing off that many people has got to be doing something right.

You realize who you're addressing, right? I mean, letting up on the hyperbolic accelerator is hardly a trademark, here, and I sure don't plan on stopping just because you have a notion.

But you are wrong. I did not say you "chose not to think to deeply about things", purposefully so. I said that the sentiment you had was similar to those who do tend to be more shallow in their thinking, clearly indicating that you did put some thought into it.

And while I will never shy away from giving my conservative friends hell, that "conservative" statement was merely to underline that one could feel that way and not be a shallow thinker. One could use the word "liberal" to same effect. I've just never heard it said about liberals.

Still, if you took it as an insult, I apologize for the opaque nature and/or clumsy execution of my statement.

Fair enough. I respect that. I will reiterate that humor, though, is a way to explore such topics, sometimes by-passing the taboos we may otherwise place on it.

As an example, I will submit this link. It was quite revolutionary for it's time, and perfectly illustrates the dynamic we're exploring here. It's also hysterically funny, generally considered to be one of the funniest moments in TV history. Enjoy. Then reflect that...

Mooney's racism never bothered me. In the same way that I HATE Ice Cube's gansta sh*t, but I love his kill whitey songs. If it's funny, it's fine. Yes, he's racist off stage too, but we deserve it.

Maybe if we had a white Paul Mooney.....

In my previous life as a working musician, I had, for several years, a ritual that entailed me listening to Death Certificate at top volume while I showered and got ready to go work. As a sliver of that time was spent on the road with a country band, I got to see more than my share of confused redneck bandmate stares.

Nice. Our touring go-to was Tenacious D's first album when it came out.

Being funny and racist (jokingly anit-white, really) is not easy, so I have a bit of appreciation for those that can do it well. There are very few who can pull it off.

Love this thread as one of my favorite things to do is go see comedians. Some of my favorites currently:

Jim Jeffries--most everything I've seen from him is hilarious. I've probably seen him three times in past year and a half, and most of the material was fairly new/modified every time.

Anthony Jeselnik--I've seen him quite a few times too, and I would agree he could probably use more material, but most all of his stuff is great. Probably the greatest pure one-liner comic currently.

Daniel Tosh--He is more mainstream obviosuly with Tosh.1, but hisstandup is still some really good stuff. I really liked Happy Thoughts and saw him a few months back with completely new material. I thought he killed it.

Hannibal Burress--Never seen him live, but all of his specials and youtube clips are funny. He seems to have very good comedic pacing etc.

Kevin Hart-- His 'I'm a grown little man' was one of the funniest stand-ups I've seen in awhile. His most recent wasn't as good, but still decent. I have a feeling he is going to get a bunch of hype behind him and be unable to keep up with expectations.

Tracy Morgan--He has found success on TV and in movies, but his stand-up game is quite solid. I've seen him multiple times, as well as his 'One Mic' special. He is dirtier than most every other comedian, so if you like that stuff he's nutted.

Jay Oakerson--I saw him live once at a show that included Anthony Jeselnik, Neil Brennan, and Dave Attell, and he likely had the best set. Seen Dave Attell live twice and he sucked both times, but had a few moments in one of the sets.

Bill Burr--all of the material I've seen of his is great.

Jim Gaffigan--probably the cleanest comedian who I really like. Most of his humor is very relatable since it has to do with food and middle class America. I didn't like his most recent release as much, but it was only $5 on his website so its still well worth it.

Older/non=active comedians:

Dave Chappelle: as a std, 'Killing them softly' is likely my favorite stand up of the 21st century.

Eddie Murphy: Raw and Delirious age very well. I saw them for the first time in over eight years a few months back and thought they were just as funny and innovative as a lot of the current comedians. Eddie is willing to touch issues that were taboo to touch until only recently.

Patrice O'Neal--Watching his stand up posthumously makes me really regret not getting more into him when I might have had a chance to see him live. He has race humor the way many others have race humor, but his seems more unique and less generic.

Honorable mentions go to Russell Peters, Aziz Ansari, and Louis CK.

Jake Johannsen has always been one of my favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztVU6swtkM

Don't know why he never really "made it," but I've never seen anyone deliver a better live show insofar as straight stand-up. I used to work at the Improv, and he was the only one who had enough material to spread it out over 5 nights. Just incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_rUN...eature=related

The amazing thing, and probably why he never became huge, is that he is a "clean" comedian. Takes shear talent to find someone who can make you laugh w/o resorting to cursing or putting down others, though don't get me wrong, I like that stuff too.

I usually despise musical comedians, but Bo Burnham's Words Words Words special is f*cking brilliant. Can't believe how young he was with the quality of the material.

During Jeselnik's Marc Maron interview he talks about working on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon and that process, saying that he (and most of the writers) would just take a current topic and write hundreds of one liners, with only a few (obviously) being used.

Jeselnik is pretty damn funny.