I think a lot of people look down at these games as mindless and not too constructive for poker players. At least that’s the reaction I get from a lot of people that see me play these. I have an opposite point of view from that and wanted to share.

I think these games can be extremely constructive and useful for poker players across many different skill levels. Here’s the main reasons I think they are cool:

1. It’s possible to effectively measure your ROI in these.

Based on empirical evidence, I think 2,000 games is a reasonable sample in these, 5,000 is a good sample, and 10,000 is a very good sample. What I mean by that is that for any number of sample of games your ROI during that sample will be within x% of your expected ROI y% of the time. The larger the sample, the smaller x will be and larger y will be. I think 2,000 games will give you some idea of your ROI; 5,000 a good idea, and 10,000 a very good idea.
I’m sure there is some math one could do to figure this stuff more accurately, I’m just throwing out guesses based on my experience and what I’ve seen regarding stats of other players.
2,000 games or 5,000 games may sound like a lot, but since these are turbos – they finish quickly and are much easier to multi-table effectively than regular MTTs. A lot of players are capable of playing these numbers of games rather quickly.

I think it’s very useful to be able to know what your ROI in a game is.

I also think it’s pretty impossible to know or measure this for MTTs. The sample needed is too large, and the game conditions change too quickly (i.e. quality of opposition you face over time, and your own game).

Here – you can actually measure your ROI, analyze your game, fix holes and measure your ROI again.

2. Variance reduction tool.

Relative to MTTs, the variance in these is smaller. MTTs have more players and hence larger variance. Yes MTTs will typically have better structures which reduce the variance, but in my experience the better structure is not as significant as the number of players in the tourney.
In addition, and this is probably even more significant than the above, it’s not possible to get your MTT volume up nearly as quickly as these.
For example, it’s relatively easy to play 2,000 of these Turbo’s in a month.
You couldn’t play 2,000 100 rebuys in a year if you played every single one that runs across multiple sites.

3. It’s much easier to become good at these relative to MTTs.

The skills you need in these are a subset of the ones you need in MTTs. Basically most of your ROI comes from pre-flop decisions and shallow stack decisions.
That makes it easier to analyze your game and plug leaks.

These skills are also very relevant and important for MTTs. Late in MTTs, where your decisions make the most impact on your equity, these skills become more important.

You also still get to apply other skills: deep stack poker, hand reading, etc – just not nearly as often as in MTTs. But these will add a few % to your overall ROI. So you do get the opportunity to work on these skills playing these as well.

4. The hourly rate you can achieve at these is not negligible.

I know what my ROI is in these. I don’t really know what my ROI in MTTs is since my sample is in my opinion statistically too small to tell.
That said historically, my ROI in these and MTTs has been comparable.

The average time it takes me to play one of these is about 4 times shorter than the average time it takes me to play an MTT.
Also, in terms of multi-tabling, the effort required for me to play one of these is about ½ the effort needed for an MTT. That is I can effectively multi-table twice the number of these turbos than I could MTTs.

So from an hourly expectation, I expect to make as much from these as I do from ~$80 MTTs. This is very rough math, so maybe I’m off somewhere, but my point is it’s not negligible.

To summarize, I think these are a great tool for:

People without a significant database and/or bankroll looking to get into MTTs. It’s a great way to build a bankroll, measure your ROI in these games, and build some basic skills for MTTs.
I guess I should also say it’s a great way to learn and become a winning player in the first place. As many think they are winning players where in-fact they are not.

Skilled mid/high stakes MTT players to reduce variance.
Ya if your bankroll (and tolerance for variance) is big enough to sustain 100k+ downswings, you are better off just focusing on increasing hourly rate and playing only high stake tourneys.
If your variance tolerance isn’t as high, it’s probably good to find other things to mix in with the high buy-in MTT’s and in my opinion these are a viable option.

Obviously I’m not suggesting people play just these and forever. These can get boring, you only learn so much playing these, and as you become better you can make more playing other higher stakes games.
But I do think they have their room, overall could be extremely useful to a lot of players – and are underappreciated.

holy revolving doors batman

$12 180s....the PINNACLE of poker.

why i think they are cool

yes i am that bad at them


Poker Stars $11+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t400/t800 Blinds + t75 - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: t17130 M = 9.93
Hero (MP): t19530 M = 11.32
CO: t10355 M = 6.00
BTN: t3211 M = 1.86
SB: t3219 M = 1.87
BB: t9920 M = 5.75
UTG: t3455 M = 2.00

Pre Flop: (t1725) Hero is MP with A 6
2 folds, Hero raises to t2000, 3 folds, BB raises to t3200, Hero calls t1200

Flop: (t7325) A 6 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t7325) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t16255 all in, BB calls t6645 all in

River: (t20615) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t20615
Hero shows A 6 (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
BB shows 4 4 (three of a kind, Fours)
BB wins t20615

doubt that hand is real

Brag: I'm at Dan87s table in a 12/180 right now!

and one more for the road


Poker Stars $11+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t600/t1200 Blinds + t125 - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP2: t15306 M = 5.47
CO: t10737 M = 3.83
BTN: t13345 M = 4.77
SB: t10054 M = 3.59
Hero (BB): t8110 M = 2.90
UTG: t10870 M = 3.88
UTG+1: t16200 M = 5.79
MP1: t10449 M = 3.73

Pre Flop: (t2800) Hero is BB with 4 T
6 folds, SB calls t600, Hero checks

Flop: (t3400) 4 T K (2 players)
SB bets t1200, Hero raises to t6785 all in, SB calls t5585

Turn: (t16970) K (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t16970) A (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t16970
SB shows 7 K (three of a kind, Kings)
Hero shows 4 T (two pair, Kings and Tens)
SB wins t16970


one day i will make a final table and on that day i will sacrifice a cow

If you like playing them stop talking about them.

op is a fool. the 180s are not worth anyones time. I suggest you all stay away.

Not to mention that, in contrast with larger MTTs, the sessions exclusively with these can be relatively shorter. This is very advantageous for the university student needing a small break from studying, etc. :>

dood

whats mine say?

You're assuming that talking about them will bring more sharks to the game rather than fish - which isn't necessarily (or even likely) the case.

At any rate, no more new posts about these from me...

doubt thats my ham you trapped

how long till these arent beatable after the nonstop promos?

never.


there will always be guys like I GRIND THIS who are just ahead of the curve.

i sure wish i could stake that guy. might even let him keep his fpps if he asks nicely.

I guess this seals up my thoughts on wanting to play 180's.

Zima, he's probably just incapable of playing a structure with >180< players. He's good tho, should be a good graph before he finds big $ mtt's.

i dont like them

sorry, seats taken

not gonna 50/50 boardslide this rail tony hawk

in b4 thread explodes...

+net= trapped ham

wtf amir..

Another thread about these? This couldn't go in your other $12 180 man thread? ffs brah...

mttc is now 180c