For those of you who had read and seen this story in the NVG thread, I apologize as I made in error when typing out the story.

Anyways, this involves a hand that my friend got involved in at event #2 day 1b for the 2013 wsopc at AC.

My friend was hu with another player, in which everything had gone smoothly all the way up until the river. My friend had about 22k, while villain had about 10k. On the river, my friend had the nuts and bet 3k. The villain, who had his chips in different stacks according to chip color/denomination, put them all together into one stack. Then he picked up all his chips put them out past the "invisible betting line" and put them on the felt, and let go of all his chips momentarily (for approx 1 sec). Then he grabbed his chips again, and pulled back everything except for 3k and said "call". The dealer stated it was just a call, and my friend called the floor person over, who also ruled it a call. My friend attempted to plea his case stating that the other player had in fact used forward motion, then let go of his chips past the line and onto the felt and brought back everything except for 3k and said "call". The floor person threatened to give my friend a 1 round penalty if he persisted. My friend later talked to another floor person, who just stated that their rules are different and they depend on the casino.

I've seen players who bring out more chips needed to make a call, and drop the right amount for the call, but in this situation, the villain dropped his entire stack on the felt (instead of just the calling chips) and then pulled off the amount to make the call. I think this ruling is ridiculous and this should have been an all in for the villain. I mean, why would the villain take his time to stack up all his chips, which were separated according to color and bring them all out, when he could have just brought out 3k in chips. Clearly the villain was intending to go all in, but at last second changed his mind and picked his chips back up and left 3k for the call.

There was a similar situation in 2008 where Brandon Cantu had an issue with another player involving a string bet, but the floor ruled that forward motion is "ok" as long as players do not release their chips. In this scenario, the villain had released all of his chips, before taking enough back for just the call. What are all your thoughts on this hand?

I know this is just a small $365 wsopc buy in event, but this is probably one the worst rulings I have ever heard.

It sounds terrible but if this casino's rules permit this (aka the floor fully understood what happend and made this ruling) then it doesnt seem unfair I guess ?

Should probably be ruled an allin then, i guess it depends on how far out he pushed his stack.

Pleasantly surprised this wasn't a chainsaw thread.

terrible ruling, if he wanted to call he'd countout 3k and put them in. This guy tried to angleshoot your friend, couldnt get a reaction then decided to call.

once the scumbag put the chips out and realeased his hand from them if he had 4500 or over in chips, he should be forced to minraise at least.

There is no Atlantic city circuit event. It's harrahs ac or Caesars ac. Don't unnecessarily slander one casino.

Sorry, just to clarify this happened at Caesars wsopc AC, which is still going on right now. Also there is only one circuit stop in AC in 2013. Harrahs AC was in 2012.

If it's one fluid motion (i.e. he doesn't take his hand back after dropping the chips) it's probably a call, if he drops his chips, does something else with his hand, then claws them back it's a raise. One second is not a lot of time.

"Then he picked up all his chips put them out past the "invisible betting line" and put them on the felt, and let go of all his chips momentarily (for approx 1 sec)."

I read your original description in NVG (before it was deleted) and that is not what you said as I recall...

I did figure out your friend only bet 3K. (you previously said all-in) That much was obvious...

As for his opponent, you said he stacked his chips in a rather tall stack (paraphrased). My thinking was as the stack wobbled or tipped he made a move to prevent it falling. That move caused it to partly fall over the betting line.

then your friend (with the nuts) insisted he moved in.
--------
"..I mean, why would the villain take his time to stack up all his chips, which were separated according to color and bring them all out, when he could have just brought out 3k in chips..."

You're allowed to stack and restack and do whatever ... no law against that and it doesn't commit you to bet them.

yeah, something isn't right here...

If villain moved all his chips past the betting line, let go of his chips for even a microsecond, and then takes back all those chips and calls the $3k, 99.9999% of all floor people will rule that all those chips must stay because that is forward motion and clear angle shooting...

If villain was going to make a motion and if during that motion his chips "fell" across the line and he recovers those chips and says "call" then it is a call.

Incidentally, if a player is an angle shooter, you need to call the floor over to issue a warning before a big situation happens.

For instance, I was playing a tournament in which a known angle shooter would grab a big handful of chips and move them clearly forward to make a call/raise depending on the read he got on his villain. I was not in the hand and after the hand I called the floor over. Floor came over and I described the situation and said, "If villain does that while I'm in the hand I want you to know and I want villain to know that I will call that a raise and insist that those chips stay in the pot. FLoor, could you rule on that right now so that villain knows that if he is in a hand against me that I am going to insist that all chips in his hand stay in the pot as forward motion because I don't like angle shooters...."

Best way to handle angle shooters is to defuse them before they get a chance to angle shoot.

^ I wrote this as you were posting but it's virtually the same angle.. Might have been two angle shooters going at eachother.

here's another scenario.. If I recall, you got this story from your friend, and have only his word for what happened..

We've all seen this:

His opponent stacks up all his chips and puts his hands at the base. Your friend prematurely grabs his stack...
That's known as a "tell" .. hehe..
Then embarrassment... plus a flexible and selective memory.. the imagination takes over.

Did any chips pass the "line"? Perhaps.. not gonna call anyone a liar. My guess is it was just a mistaken impression of what actually happened.

you would think with scam rakes like 300+65 500+85 1000+125 1500+175 that ceasars would be able to afford to put a betting line on their tables, but guess not

They are getting $65 vig on a $300 buy in? Yikes.

Anywho, something does seam odd here. If he puts his chips out, and puts them on the felt, who the hell is that not an all in? What house rule could there be to say that is just a call because he picked some back up?

What makes it even worse is that the floor person didn't even saying anything to the villain or give him a warning. I guess that's what you get for a $365 event.

sorry I went back and read it again and realized I wrote it out completely wrong, the other description in NVG didnt make sense at all, my bad. And like I said before, why would he stack all his chips up like that. I'm not saying there is anything against doing that. Do you honestly believe he was intending to just call with his whole stack like that? I mean the fact that he said call after all the motions, shows me he changed his mind at the last second

I've seen it both ways. An opponent is just making some deceptive move, hoping to get a read, or they do intend to bet that stack of chips but had second thoughts at the last moment.

Thing is, you can't know what their intention is. So (prior to a warning for this angle shot) intention is unreliable and usually disregarded. (Intention does matter in some situations of course, but not here imo)

Holding the nuts you really want to see his hands stack his chips. But it aint over yet. Gotta wait.

+1

That does sound like a bad ruling, or a bad house rule... either way. However, I don't think the floor would have threatened your friend with a round penalty unless he became beligerant or simply wouldn't let it go. At some point you just have to give in and move on.

Yea we really can't know what the villains intentions were, nonetheless, its a bad ruling.

I mean despite being only a $365 event, it would have been a big pot if the villain was forced to put his 10K (which is the starting stack, and I think they were only at level 3 or 4 blinds when this happened)

Apparently Caesars AC. Had the villain just put his chips out and put out 3k without releasing his whole stack, I think its ok (I've seen many players do this) I think there is an official rule that as long as the player doesnt let it go, its fine.

live poker is just a constant angleshooting battle

as far as the ruling there are way worse all the time, this seems at least defendable

Well I think the floor should have at least given the villain a warning or something. I mean if his real intention was to call, he should have just said call before he even moved any chips, since verbal is binding.