Basically, the literature behind bitcoin (and Nash's lecture Ideal money) explains that the cost savings, from society adopting bitcoin, is actually passed on to the citizens not the elite wealthy of today.This means for example in poker, adopting bitcoin throughout the whole industry would eventually pass massive cost savings on to the players.

I admit this is only a conjecture. But now we have an experiment, and the experiment is the key part about the argument. I modeled the experiment on bitcoin's implementation. In other words how about we don't argue theoretically. But rather 10 or so members:

sign up for a wallet at https://counterwallet.io/#
2) post their public wallet address here
3) I will send 10 people "na.j coin

Then we can all see by experimentation if my conjecture is true, that effective rake increases, and none of us have to read the literature!

(site is being up dated at the very moment)

Here is what the signup looks like:



You simply click "create new wallet", save your password (cannot be reset), and now you have a wallet. Copy the public address and post it here (then you will recieve our universal poker coin).

The servers seem down for maintenance (obviously not bitcoin/blockchain) but here is an example of a public address:1DWzYs5DWhApUTPPnSBh39VNEkbWo8r73S

Every body keeps and hides their own "public Key", which they can use to create infinite public addresses. And this becomes one of the many uses for the community because we are now able to (anonymously!) link our 2p2 accounts with a cryptographically secure ID/network system. This allows for seamless and ultra secure privacy for communication and other "transactions". We will use this system to build and anonymous network of trust so the players can begin to fight collusion by forming natural coalitions of players we trust in an ACTUAL database that NO third party owns or keeps for the players.

Remember we aren't interested in a store of wealth or value (this is what bitcoin is for), so we are not as worried for example if counterparty's serves are down (or even if they one day ceased to exist all of a sudden). When it comes up perhaps there are 5 or 10 or so brave souls, that want to be early adopters (most to gain), who might verify for others how difficult or easy it is to sign up for a wallet and receive some coin.

The whole process incentives us to cooperate and learn about the technology that passes the cost savings onto the players!

is this annoying dude allowed to advertise freely here ? is there really no mod anymore in mttc ?

Firstly no I am not allowed here, secondly its not advertising, its for the players and by the players. It is the only solution/option available that will every be so.That is the beauty and although 2p2 might continue to ban such a concept it is not against the TOC nor is it against any laws in any countries.

counterparty (.io) (which aims to be a decentralized exchange) is now back online. Perhaps a few players can get a wallet and post their public address and we can try this experiment out. Here is my public address that you will receive the Na.j coin from: 1FP15TVkMugeU1XA8bQRN3iv1PmKiE8rSv

It takes seconds to sign up as there is nothing to input, just generate a wallet and save your password.

(btw since its an experiment we can prove the conjecture or disprove it by participation! Everything to gain and nothing to lose.)

You are not explaining how creating a coin would affect effective rake.

Just because I can create an asset on xp, does not mean I can affect effective rake.

Again I don't see how Bitcoin has anything to do with the poker economy.

You need to explain.

I mean, we could obviously ban him (for the umpteenth time), but, as we can see by the fact that he is still posting after being banned 1,000 times, it isn't a really effective system. If someone is hell-bent on posting, they're usually going to figure out a way to do it. From my perspective, having one thread here where he can sound off is pretty harmless. And, while I might be wrong, I wouldn't be too worried about his "advertising" having great effect in a thread in which he is also posting.

In the past, it's turned into this annoying thing where he makes like six threads on the front page and it becomes an actual interference with others' enjoyment of MTTC. My hope is that won't happen this time.

I recognized this and tried my best to participate by implicit collusion. I realize 2p2 would rather slap me with cease and desist, but the storm of it is over, and I've been basically intent on keeping everything only in this thread. And in fact most of the difficult stuff is over, and any friction/tension seems released and dying down.

I would like to address the few questions left. And perhaps players will or will not participate in the experiment. But rest assured there is no business or advertising, but the players talking about "email 2.0"

other than that if the dialog dies, then all I am hoping is we don't lock the thread, but allow it to fade.

I already feel very "heard", and so my desire to be disruptive has completely faded. I thank you all...for something you probably aren't happy about "giving" me in the first place.

If an out of town business offers a cheaper product this does not effect the customer in hometown because the customer must factor in driving cost/time. But if the customer gained a teleportation machine then the in town company would go out of business.

This is what bitcoin is, an instant costless channel in which the poker player can instantly change from any site they wish. This is the missing factor needed for customer liquidity to put NATURAL market pressure on sites to offer a better product (ie effective rake!)

Na.j Coin is duel purpose, first it helps facilitate the process by incentivizing players to sign up for crypto wallets. Secondly it breaks the mental barrier for technology adoption that the players need in order to develop the software solutions to police and monitor their own community/game.

Doesn't matter so much, bitcoin's price has been climbing hard since this thread started. I'm not sure what everyone thinks fuels the markets and the public's decision...but we are about to learn that it is btc price

Anyone want to post an public address and try a wallet/na.j coin?

so ur going to put rake free bitcoin buy in sunday millions on? what are u hoping to achieve here? open a site that uses rake free Bc as currency?

and also zzzzzzzzz

having a universal currency across poker sites would definitely be helpful.. but you are still coming across as crazy. maybe spend your time learning how to play the game.

what makes you think that having ideal money will save players/community money? it was an initial hope of mine that the introduction of BTC into poker would have trickle down effects and lower effective rake... but from what i've read and followed, particular from gzesh, there is nothing to indicate that would be the case

i have more hope in building a trustless network + a payments system for emerging markets, but i think that will evolve and develop as its needed

ive read your posts, and dont agree with the hostility and anger you receive, nor the bans in the past. but it is a 2 way street, and you could conduct yourself with class. it would help a lot in getting your message across

i agree with some of what you say (yes poker has a value measurement problem, so what?), but dont understand or agree with some of the jumps you make. for instance , wealth of staking? why should staking contracts be invalidated? and even further, why would a backer ever enter a deal with a player that is -EV? it's much worse for the backer...if anybody is misleading someone in the deal, it is the horse



----------------

This is A Revolution of the Mind... but Remember; They Laughed at Jules Verne Too

-TLF

Nails it.

Get better at poker then you will be able to beat the rake. Sort of agree 180s are dead now but you don't seem to be able to adapt to any other type of game.

If a good poker player not a shove bot realised his bread and butter games were dying he would change games simple as that really. Please don't reply to this post with walls of technical nonsense cos im to stupid to understand it unfortunately.

Remeber ideal money is the stabilizing of all currencies on a global market. "Asymptotically" ideal money is the process by which we achieve that:

"Value stabilization", and I don't want to speak for the man, but we can think of it as tomorrow, since Wall Street Journal has already printed the fact that a US bitcoin exchange just got licensed to operate in half the US states. Obviously the rest will follow soon, and the world is going to gain real confidence in the money/technology. And furthermore its widely known that two of the biggest investors are on the brink (ok relative brink) of bringing about an exchange trading fund.

THIS is what fuels regulation and law, because now every government, banking agency, intelligence agency and legal/political entity must now go back to the drawing board and figure out what their relation is to the current technological reality.

I've been speaking with Gzesh a little and many others in the industry Gzesh is our (the players) best friend and likely our most valuable asset. I think I can say this appropriately and its just a fun term, but after a little bit of research I think the word is "resourceful". In fact if this conversation unfolds anymore in a favorable manner we should (I prob might) ask him to join. Gzesh doesn't necessarily agree with me, but once pointed out that sometimes running into the community with the gospel is not the best idea regardless of its validity. But its likely him and others have not read much of the literature posted by Nick Szabo (I suspect Szabo is nash).

So to sum all that up, it WAS common belief economics work in a way in which something like bitcoin would not ultimately "trickle down", and Szabo's works extends and clarify's Adam smith in such a way that shows this is not true (cue the blonde scene ). Our entire belief system on economics is getting ripped up from the ground route, Nash has been lecturing on it for 20 years and no one cared or cares, and what is becoming obvious is the masses do not "reason" on these things but simply react to the markets. You can't tell them bitcoin is awesome, they must see the price go up.

Yes I can't find the papers but he did write about this in relation to remittance and micropayments. It is all very well described and designed 20 years ago. So those that aren't inline with what I am saying basically haven't read the paperwork behind the movement. It's still me making a claiming that these papers exist and that does seem to be their point, but my point is that this whole economic "machine" that lays on top of bitcoin was designed a very long time ago and that design is yet to be realized for quite sometime in the future. Smart contracts via ethereum is one such example (to be released in coming weeks). So yes its top down in a sense, but really its just the infrastructure takes some time, although its been 5 years.

Yes I agree. I will always apologize sincerely, but I also felt I had/have a message that cannot be ignored, yet I admit I am a terrible messenger. I eventually resorted to simply typing "nash bitcoin!!!" over and over for days even, and couldn't understand why it didn't pop a collective conscious bubble of realization. That is my weakness clearly I do not at all claim to be super smart through and through, but only in some specific ways (stupid in others). More class would help but I hope you and some others will realize that when someone comes in my thread and says "I didn't read anything but op is an idiot", then I say something like "you don't have the intelligence to know you are a terrible poker player", my point being if in 20 seconds later they come back and say "i read it now and i have a question..." I might instantly respond "you are a good poker player I am delighted to answer your question. Some see that as manic and unbalanced, but irl im not swinging my moods like that its just how I treat posters, basically mirroring their attitude. Its true sometimes I over reach and say things that are just attacks, and just as true sometimes I've just said and done things that "lack class" (to maybe understate).


Here is little explanation in relation to Szabo's explanation of the importance of value measurement http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...13&postcount=3

On his twitter for example he re-tweeted an article in which basically a security leak with an "odometer" system cost a company billions. Because the players cannot accurately assess "effective rake" they lose an amount of value that is their greatest leak. While most of the players we talk to will say "so what who cares", the truth of the matter is much like learning about "range" and "nash equilibrium theory", the general poker masses in the near future will spend a lot of time discussing and trying to solve "effective rake". This is because doing so is far more profitable for the individual than is fixing leaks at the table. I wonder if this is easy to see now?

The wealth of staking is another extension of this whole "nashian/szabo/bitocin" economics. Its not that we are going to "invalidate" certain contracts. But rather that I suggest the community shouldn't (and in the future won't) VALIDATE the contracts. Such is the natural state of the markets (no 3rd party intervention), and it will have the effect of causing the backers to choose +ev horses. When the onus is on the horse in any form it causes a distortion in the game in which bad backers are signing bad horses and this is causing a destruction of value. Much like "cooperative efforts" can create synergy and more value than two individual efforts, these bad deals are crushing the value of the game. I'd like to go in depth on that but this is a long post already, I do have articles and there is another thread in this section call "the wealth of staking".

Btw tho, the horse cannot mislead the backer under this new "understanding", the backer should be the savviest of the two, especially in general, with the only real counter argument being that investors might not even play poker...and this is exactly what we don't want! We don't want investors that don't play the game because the fraction of equity they control is the amount of game we don't own!


Yes, and unfortunately they put Dr Nash in an Asylum for saying he was going to save the peoples from the colluding governments ...I wonder if we just didn't understand what he was trying to say...ideal money is an idea from the the early 1960's.

Thank you for your time, your patience, and just having to put up with this the whole time.

Yes I think so too, and so you should recognize the significance and validity of the plan. The value saved (millions/billions in raked money), would be captured in any mechanism invented that would solve this problem. And so I conjecture if the players release/adopt their own coin, and get a strategic coalition of partners in the industry to adopt the coin as merchants, then the value of the coin will mimic the "data" that the "bitcoin experiment" has produce.

In other words the inefficiency in todays poker world has bubbled so big, that it has created an intrinsic value for a solution.

In Nash's lecture the idea is that the inefficiency in the global currency market has created intrinsic value for his solution.

Bitcoin or universal poker coin, each don't have intrinsic value on another planet perhaps, but on this planet at this time in our culture, there is such a bubble of inefficiency that any solution to it stands to gain exponentially in proportion to that which it solves.

N.aj. coin is the solution to the "instability" of "effective rake", and "bitcoin" is clearly the solution to our floating currency system.

Yes I realize I do, yet I must present this material. And yes you were taught by old school players that if you concentrate on your own "individual ev" that is more profitable than working together with the community.

Since the mass adoption of such a mantra we have allowed the game to be destroyed, and the only ones that would argue are those oblivious to the state of it. The truth is that in the future players covet cooperative ev even more than individual ev because clearly this is what is needed for the profitability and sustainability of the game (see article "moral poker").

No. I have pointed out that the effective rake is simply too high in 180's and that winrates are largely delusion. I am not a rec that is complaining. I am a VERY well studied and experienced 180 reg. I wish you understood the seriousness without me having to say these things.

I am far beyond being a shove bot, and quite confident that by the end of this that in the near future I will have much to contribute to the strategy of short stack poker as well as how to extend that into deeper stack poker.

If you have been following its clear why I still play 180's. Because of winrate misconception (IMO ;P) its largely believed I am not a knowledgeable player. And combined with, over the last year, my inability to participate in the community and the market, I have been unable to both prove such claims wrong or seek a type of deal that allows me to show this. I cannot get backed/staked "well" in this regard.

In other words, the peoples that tell me they don't trust me as a deep stack player but only as a short stack player...are people that do not understand the relation of shortstack poker to deeper stack poker (see for example wil tipton's hu book for how I see the relation).

This myth about "shove bots" being predominant in 180's is simply deluded as well. Many regs claiming that others would win more if they weren't shove bots, when what is true is they cannot see general strategy has evolved well beyond that (and its only their own graphs that is causing them to be so vocal about effective rake complaints).

So lastly if Stars targets rake, and 180's are breakeven or profitable, what religious belief are we telling ourselves that is their excuse for not targeting it across the board? In other words if I were a business I would try to optimize the effective rake in all sectors of the site.

I tried not to speak my own language here too much, thx.

gl with everything borfoon. be safe.

Wild assumptions with no back-up evidence all over your last few posts. If you want to be taken seriously, stop blasting away on your keyboard at anybody who tries to participate in your "conversation".

You still have not explained how your coin that you control has an effect on the effective rake.

Stop writing walls of text and explain how it should work.

If you sent me an cp coin I just have an asset without value in my wallet.

How are you going to control effective rake.

I'm reading these posts in a new light for the first time, historically they have caused me to just roll my eyes through the back of my head but somehow I see the sincere-ness in explaining that I have not really explained.

We are hoping to bring the value back into the economy of poker that was sucked out of it because of and especially since black friday. Like the analogue of a frog in water that slowly heats to boiling, we are largely unware of the effect of "high effective rake", yet if we can look objectively it has destroyed the global market of the game. In your eyes, what might interest you (or zzzz) is simply in the near future all poker will be not regulated by governments and will be played with primarily crypto-currency (I mean we still have traditional mail even though we have email right?). Expect this change over the next few months not years.

Yes zzz

Well sometimes walls of texts are needed. I can do cliffs and summary too, but they never seem to suffice either. It would always help if you quote the last response I give to you as an example of what you don't like. Asj has the idea:

We might then take a look at the "abstract:

And then peek at the conclusion:

I mean here is the thing, perhaps those are walls of text, but I think we will find as time goes by that there is not anyone so far who can explain this better, and the explanations will in fact suffice. I worry though that you and others aren't actually taking the time to read each line. I don't write normally, I generally just write significant points in each sentence with little "explanatory paragraphs" or "summary". Perhaps its something I picked up gradually but it is why "Ideal Money" is so difficult to read, you cannot read a whole paragraph and think about it...you must read the first line "The special commodity called money has a long and interesting history" and then read a plethora of material that explains the history and for the reason he calls it a "special commodity. That is line one .

I deny I've made any assumptions and I think only one that has not immersed themselves in the bulk of "the wealth of chips" or szabo's blog would make such an accusation. But I will allow us to call it "pure conjecture". And this is what is important, we have a scientific test available. Some people simply need to get a wallet and post their public address and we will see what happens as the phenomenon catches on.

So you see we are in strange position, because as bitcoin is being discussed TODAY in every nation in the world by all our governing agencies, we as players are discussing whether or not such a thing can actual fuel "political evolution". Our poker movement is tied to the price and "well being" of bitcoin, and tomorrow we wake up to a different paradigm in the US because there will be 25 states that bitcoin has a licensed exchange in (wall street journal article).

The significance among many other things is very explainable by taking Nash's words about the banking system and our governments, and explaining it in relation to our current poker situation. By PSFTCIAFBIDOJ, we just mean to point out the institutions that were involved in black friday (ie CIA is a joke or part of a metaphor, I am not worried about the CIA/FBI etc ):

I guess you can say, I am arguing from authority.

Thank you! U2! and gl too all! I am safe, had a good walk today, am balanced/happy and I hope we are all having fun

So I start here. First of you have again posted walls of text without actually explaining how the coin reduces the effektive rake.

If i understand the above you think everyone having this coin will lead to the ability to exchange funds on sites more easy and thus lead to sites reducing rake which reduces the effective rake.

1) what is the advantage in that regard over money or btc? Which can be sent back and forth easy and without real disruption.

2) why would sites participate ?

3) what does any of this have to do with rake?

4) what does reducing rake help with actually addressing effective rake

Your solutions seems complicated since you are unable to explain it.

How are u going to convince poker player if u can't even tell it to people that are actually teying to understand you?

1) Bitcoin we would consider "ideal poker", a universal currency across all sites. This creates a free market, and if I must explain beyond that then I must reference the entire wealth of nations. But it is not you that might the issue understanding. It is Szabo that formalized Adam Smith's works and re-fined what it means to economics and our society.

2) Only sites that are not the status quo would participate, of course because they want the player favor. Players will naturally collectively favor and industry entity that accepts "na.j coin". 2p2 for example will of COURSE participate and stands to be probably the single most benefitor!

3) When you create a free market for the customer you dissolve monopoly and begin a price war. Sites will have to "inflation" adjust for effective rake by lowering rake (sorry if that doesn't make economic sense).

4) Rake % is one of the components of effective rake. Lowering rake % lowers effective rake.

Again though, I can only say to you, Na.j Coin would be the catalyst to a free market of exchange that would cause an "effective rake" price war that would benefit the players. Its a conjecture that the free markets do this, and there is no reason to continually beat around the bush about it, we have the coin, receiving it is simple...

we can prove this conjecture either wrong or right, will we continue to watch the price of BTC sky rocket into the morning (ha ok we're wishing ;p))

The exact same way "satoshi" convinced you to buy bitcoin my friend, early adopters gain the most and market price drives our collective consciousness!The same thing that is going to cause all these players to buy and talk about bitcoin tomorrow!

What fuels reality? What fuels the masses? What fuels the markets?
These questions are "economical" in nature

A few peoples, intelligent, or creative, or risk takers, take the plunge, get a wallet, and post their public address here, after a small handle we create 5 or 10 "nodes" of trusted peoples and we spread 21 million of them amongst us through various methods.

Just stop being so condescending to anybody who is having trouble understanding what you are saying dude.
You spit out so much jibberish and connect it all with buzzwords and random quotes. Do you read these posts before you post them?

If you were just a tad nicer (maybe a lot nicer) people would take you more seriously. I haven't read much of your content since you got banned a few months ago (WE NEED AN UNCENSORED FORUM. FOR THE PLAYERS!!!) but I've never seen a nice or neutral comment in your posts. Just constantly licking your own ass and putting others down.

You have some nice ideas that could legitimately improve the poker economy. politics is all about popularity and your current route is definitely not the best one for you.

try bullet pointing your main idea into a single post. show some positives, negatives, actions required to reach the target, etc.

Make it clear what you are saying and don't put people down who are having trouble understanding. The problem is not with the listener, it is with the speaker.

Yes I read my posts but I admit I do not use language the same as all of you, and I am not necessarily capable of it.

I think rather you'll find I have been treated horribly by the generally community since my inception. And although you might argue I deserve it I think I didn't start it. Like "lipo fund" explained its still not very classy on my part. But its wrong to suggest I never make neutral or positive posts. I have many many many of them. Many locked, many deleted, and many are still around, and many I have made around this thread and others.

But it might be drowned out by the plethora of responses to posters that come into the threads just to say "op is an idiot" or "ban this stupid asshat" or "i didn't read anything but you are wrong". So I meet it with the same derision.

Nonetheless I understand your point, but I am also calling you and others on the fact that we have an experiment and further calling down my posting style is just dismissing the fact that each of us has a chance to put our "crypto currency" where our mouths are.

All we need is a well known/respected reg to take the leap and see what happens when one receives: N.aj coin.

Who will continue to address my posting style or who will post a public address and receive a N.aj.

(ahh sir I read your edit, thank you so much!!! Truly now we are waiting for someone to begin the experiment, and such concise explanations are not needed, and this is the reason for the experiment in the first place (players can participate without understanding and still stand to gain!)