***OFFICIAL 180-man Regs Thread NSFW***

[ScreaminAsian]

Originally Posted by Syker12

I like your ego Shen, u seem like a guy with his head kinda in the right place, you also have the game to back it up LDO. I reckon your coaching could be just as good as your game/results/i dont think many will dispute it, as youve been accredited by some of the better players in the game.

Your programme is certainly not for anyone, the right profile for the programme is prolly a 20yr old virgin with no friends/s£x life/enough money to live on for a few month's so they can sustain prolly like the first 4/5 months of not earning a great deal. I understand nothing great comes without hard work.

The point in your contract about no job/no schooling over 10 hours is horrible.
I realise its your intention to give up a lot of your time to your students but the above point.... just wow. WhoTF are you to control someone's life.

Also, you ending the stake when you feel like it / charging them money for your time is essentially daylight robbery / do you wear a stripey jumper? Obv in special circumstance where stakee is trying to scam you etc etc but they put collateral upfront for this scenario so i stand by what i said.

You 100% take advantage of people / but yes you dont hold a gun to there head and make them sign up.

Spoiler:

it sounds like you guys hate capitalism :-/ STRAIGHTEN OUT, HIPPIES

[zachvac]

wow fake poker players really have big egos.

[mement_mori]

Originally Posted by zachvac

wow fake poker players really have big egos.

I take it you mostly play cash

[ekinnehs18]

Originally Posted by ekinnehs18 View Post
I've told them this is your job now. It's only the professional that students provide full commitment on their end, so I can do my job properly.

For my training program to work, it has to be their sole focus. If they thought his was too controlling, why are they signing up?

This is the point i highlighted to be rediculous IMO.
So you tell people this will be your full time job etc. But on the other hand, you know 100% that they will not earn money to live on, how can somebody in the begging stages of your training programme, pound out the volume to even get to a 45% cut, when at times its all about learning + also cutting peoples tables down to a mear 5 at some point. Impossible to earn $$. Even more so as u stated u dont take on accomplished grinders, u work from the bottom up. So my point is valid, u need a shed load of money beind you to withstand non-income in the early stages of this programme. Earning $$ when on about a 35% cut at $2 sng's is crazy.

Ending the stake when I feel like is my choice. It the student is not ideal, is not cut out for my program, I am doing both parties a favor by ending the agreement. All I asked is fee in exchange for the time I've put in with them, of which they agreed upon. Whether you think it's fair value, that's your view. But it certainly isn't unreasonable, certainly isn't "high-way robbery" as you like to put it.

But why I would end any arrangements if I think they have potential? Why would I do that when I can make a bunch of money from the deal? You act as if my whole plan is to trick people into singing up, tell them they suck, and collect fees for my time. Easy game.

So let me get this right. You reserve the right to cancel somebody's programme even if they want to carry on, if you dont deem them "up for it" you can take there money for the time u have put in. From how youve come accross on here, i highly doubt you would take that decision lightly, but even still i think its ludacris, if you cancel someones contract to benefit 'you' then 'you' should eat the bill. To penalise the student for you dropping them is crazy, what about 'their' time + effort they have put into it?

To your 1st point, yes the beginning stages are certainly not all that optimal for making money. But at the end of day, the student has every power in their hand to speed up the process as quickly as they want to. I have never denied a student has ever come to me, asking to speed things up, so they can earn quicker. If they want to go faster, sure by all means lets get cracking.

My contract is games based. Why would I want the student to play a significant portion of those games in $2 stakes if I could move em up as quickly as possible? It would make much more sense on my end if they spent as many of the Xgame requirements on highest stakes possible.

So yes, the 1st month or 2, might be tough.We all have to make sacrifices at some point. But this is the RIGHT way to go. Why would I have my students rush to put in volume, not fully grasp new concepts, and take say 5 months to get a $X/game level. When they can put in 1/2 "tough" months and get to the same $X/game level after 1/2 months, and maximize their $/game efficiency for volume beyond months 2/3?

If we rush things off the bat and they reach in a win-rate of $0.6/game, over 5000 games. They make 3000.

OR they could make some sacrifices 1st 2 months, get to 1.2/game winrate, play 3500 games and still make more money ($4200).

As for my students, in my application, any student that has applied knows I ask them about current income level and job status. I ask this because I want to know if they're are suitable. In other words, if they are sound enough to withstand 1 or 2 of making little income. I even tell them straightup to go with the expectation of not making money (even though chances are they will).

But ask yourself this. If the students really need to make money to pay bills or be forced to live on the streets next month. Why are they playing poker? Why are they getting into this? Shouldn't they be actually working real job and not even thinking about poker?

Above all else, why do we keep escaping the fact that EVERY student were fully aware of what they signed up for? They was no time limit on deals. They didn't have to sign up now or forever lose the opportunity. If they really really had to make money, then they should wait a few months till they are comfortable financially, and then work with me.

Are you going to call me irresponsible now for decisions that are theirs to make, who are adults?

Not to mention this:

*I have provided loans to students to help with living expenses
*I have provided loans to students to buy new computer setups

Ask any of my students if this is true.

Originally Posted by LostOstrich

The value of the coaching doesn't interest me, the guy's clearly super successful and apparently a very good coach and the market will determine whether the price is right. I just found the "no job, no full time education" clause really sinister, especially as the vast majority of applicants will be young.

Refer to point above. They didn't sign up for a deal with me without knowing the terms. I didn't tell them 1 month into the stake that you cannot get a job/education. They knew what the terms were.

If they didn't like the terms, heck, by all means don't work with me. For my program to work and for student to get max value, it HAS to be full-time commitment.

[phishman]

Originally Posted by zachvac

wow fake poker players really have big egos.

Spoiler:

[Alexnorge]

My 2c

Poker players are above 18 years old and probably should be able to read and make their own choices as a grown up. IF they choose to enter the deal - they really can't come crying when they struggle to fulfill the contract they willingly signed.

The whole car story was pretty dumb, Shen, and if I'd chosen to buy coaching from you by the hour, I'd be damned pissed off at you too for coming up with such a lame excuse after I'd gone to such extent to fit your schedule. You run a business - not a muppet show. But overall I don't see nothing wrong with what you offer - as long as the customer signing on isn't a minor or obviously slow. Hell - if you can get customers offering them less - and taking more - dammit do it. It's a free market.

That said, I wouldn't sign on even if I didn't have a job. It's way out of what I see as fair - but, again, it's up to each player to choose what to sign, and then it's pretty much nothing else anyone can say about it. You offer a deal - they evaluate the offer - and then sign on or don't. After that, they have to live with their choices.

GL with your business.

[zachvac]

Originally Posted by mement_mori

I take it you mostly play cash

haha yeah obv I was kinda kidding (and it's basically a running joke with the sng regs I do talk to one of which linked me to the thread ) I realize that obviously there's skill in tourneys but in general I don't really see the learning curve as that steep. Obviously he's not accepting applicants who are just learning poker they have to already be good enough/presumably made at least a bit of money from poker because they're able to commit full time to the program. I'd be pretty shocked if it took more than a month or two of full-time volume and coaching to get someone sick good at the game if the coach is one of the biggest winners. No offense but cash has a ****ton more complicated and unsolved spots whereas 180s it's almost all just shortstack play which I'm relatively sure I could teach someone in like a week max and it seems the only complexities in the switch from shortstacking cash to sngs would be icm concerns which sngwiz handles pretty well right? I mean idk I never really messed with sngs too much I prefer making more money with less hours and less variance but I'm pretty sure most of what I said here was right. It doesn't take that long for someone that has the aptitude to be a top winner with coaching from a top winner to go from an ok winning player to a sick crusher. I honestly think I'm being generous saying it'll take an entire 2 months. Then he has another 12 months where apparently he can make 100k according to shen and he only gets half? Seems like a pretty big rip-off to me. Either he's claiming his coaching is worth 50k, I'm wrong about the learning curve, or he's admitting that it's actually not all that likely you'll be making 6 figures+ in the future.

That said it's a contract and if shen can get people to sign a contract and agree to terms that suck for them there's nothing illegal or even all that wrong with doing that. People know what they're signing and if they sign the contract even if it is pretty unfair they should still have to abide by the terms even if they are pretty loltastic (like seriously he can just charge them $250/week if he doesn't want them for the first month?) and it's pretty scummy to steal from him just because you signed something that you ended up regretting later.

[ekinnehs18]

Originally Posted by tonymark01

What's funny is charging what you do and taking advantage of people who accept your contract all for some coaching that you can reason through by putting in a lot of volume and running hands through wiz. We're talking about 180s here. Get over yourself.

Well its a little more complex than that, or else there would be TONS more people crushing.

BUT, I don't disagree you. If you read a page or 2 back, you will see that I've already stated I don't think I am god's gift to poker. Like you said, "we're talking about 180s here". I totally agree with you.

180s isn't rocket science. It is not a sign of sick poker skills. I am just good at applying a handful of core skills really well and hammer things out. I don't even think I am good poker mind at all. There players are way smarter than me. Heck, there are guys in 180s with no so great results that are very likely way smarter, can theorize about poker better on a much higher level

Originally Posted by phishman

tho

ihateriver is pretty sick no doubt. I am sure there are few things I can learn from him. But if you gonna post a dick measuring contest (when you're not even the one comparing dicks?), do dig a bit deeper.

As we know, sharkscope doesn't track rebuys properly. So if you simply did lifetime, its obviously going to be inflated due to incorrect accounting for rebuys.

Not to mention I've only begun playing the 3r this year (and I think only more or less after black friday).



Obviously the picture is still a bit murky. How do we account for 35/180s? How do we compare sample sizes? You could say my 28% ROI is more significant/impressive than his 27% since i have done it for 37k games more (been through all the rigors variance will put you through).

BUT, I don't care. He is a sick player. For those who think I have a huge inflated ego - When did I ever come in this thread and proclaim I am the KING? When I did come in here and say rivers sucks, I own you all? Please do a search for me on 2p2 and see if you can find any evidence of me bragging away.

I am just tweaking few misconceptions in that screenshot of yours, thats all, phishman

[phishman]

[phishman]

oh and if you want to compare dicks, my micro dick is bigger than yours!



too bad i sucked at anything over $10 :P

[phishman]

how could i forget

Spoiler:

[MindFckr]

this one please

Spoiler:

stealin it for stars avatar btw

[phishman]

her elbows are too pointy for my tastes :/

[MindFckr]

Originally Posted by phishman

her elbows are too pointy for my tastes :/

yea, I'd kick her out of bed as well

[ekinnehs18]

Originally Posted by zachvac

haha yeah obv I was kinda kidding (and it's basically a running joke with the sng regs I do talk to one of which linked me to the thread ) I realize that obviously there's skill in tourneys but in general I don't really see the learning curve as that steep. Obviously he's not accepting applicants who are just learning poker they have to already be good enough/presumably made at least a bit of money from poker because they're able to commit full time to the program. I'd be pretty shocked if it took more than a month or two of full-time volume and coaching to get someone sick good at the game if the coach is one of the biggest winners. No offense but cash has a ****ton more complicated and unsolved spots whereas 180s it's almost all just shortstack play which I'm relatively sure I could teach someone in like a week max and it seems the only complexities in the switch from shortstacking cash to sngs would be icm concerns which sngwiz handles pretty well right? I mean idk I never really messed with sngs too much I prefer making more money with less hours and less variance but I'm pretty sure most of what I said here was right. It doesn't take that long for someone that has the aptitude to be a top winner with coaching from a top winner to go from an ok winning player to a sick crusher. I honestly think I'm being generous saying it'll take an entire 2 months. Then he has another 12 months where apparently he can make 100k according to shen and he only gets half? Seems like a pretty big rip-off to me. Either he's claiming his coaching is worth 50k, I'm wrong about the learning curve, or he's admitting that it's actually not all that likely you'll be making 6 figures+ in the future.

That said it's a contract and if shen can get people to sign a contract and agree to terms that suck for them there's nothing illegal or even all that wrong with doing that. People know what they're signing and if they sign the contract even if it is pretty unfair they should still have to abide by the terms even if they are pretty loltastic (like seriously he can just charge them $250/week if he doesn't want them for the first month?) and it's pretty scummy to steal from him just because you signed something that you ended up regretting later.

No i charge them 250/week because my hourly is $150/hr. I didn't pull this number of my ass to use as justification to charge them the fee for leaving. Everyone who has gotten coaching from me hour by hour, knows my rate is $150/hr, sometimes as high as $200 for regs who want coaching.

So based on my hourly rate, if I were to charge someone for the full amount, $1000 after 4 weeks = 7 hrs of my time based off of my hourly rate.

Do you really think I don't even spend 7hrs with a new student in the 1st month?

I think its a bit silly for you to come in here and basically in an indirect way say tourney players (more specifically SNG players) are dumb and us cash players are way smarter/better. We already know that. We know cash is way more complex. **** yes.

But IMO, its not about cash vs MTT vs sngs. It's just about what one's specialty is. 180man players are expert <25bb players (well at least the guys who know what they're doing). Cash is 100+bb poker. MTT is 30-70bb or w/e.

Cash games are way more complex on a whole. Many more dynamics. Nobody disagrees with you. But please save some ignorance (no offense) and stop thinking "you can teach someone it in <1 week". Sure you could teach whatever YOU know about push/fold in <1week, but it probably isn't very complex.

Or sure you can teach someone the basic principles of push/fold in <1week, but there are so many more layers to <25bb than you might imagine.

This is part of the reason why there aren't more good 180man players out there. It's the same attitude of "I just do XYZ, follow a chart, see an Ace shove, <10bb button I shove ATC, wtf is there more to do...". Then they just blame variance on poor results. We all know 180mans is a "simple" game in the grand scheme of things, but if its that simple, why aren't more people crushing.

Mementmori, or insert sick MTT player is great >30bb. But I would not be surprised if I am more knowledgeable about <25bb poker than him. Now this is not a brag or anything. I am sure if mementmori/sick MTT actually dedicated more time to figuring out <25bb poker, I am positive they would figure things out way faster than me. Maybe even figure out some new way to approach <25b poker that I haven't thought of or don't have the smarts to ever do. They simply are way better poker players than me. You probably are smarter than me.

Put me at 30bb, I know what to do but will start to get a bit shaky as we get deeper and deeper. Put me at 70bb, I am clueless and just ABC poker nit it up. Put me in a cash game, I'll get owned. But if I am in a MTT where effective stacks <25bb, then I will have a leg up on everyone else.