Many players sell out pieces or win an equity satellite to big events with a re-entry format. Is there a poker community standard on what happens if the player re-enters on other flights with best-stack-forward?

For example, let's say you won an equity satellite to a World Poker Tour event where the other satellite players get 10% of your gross winnings. You play Day 1A and decide that your stack is not good enough and re-enter for Day 1B. If your Day 1B stack is higher and goes forward, should the Day 1A group have any equity in your Day 1B stack?

Is the following a fair standard for re-entry tournaments?

1) If you don't have 100% of yourself, specify which Day 1 flight the investor group's equity is for.

2) If you don't go into Day 2 with that flight's stack, the group has no equity in you.

Technically, you would owe your day1A investors their % share of the abandoned stack's ICM equity at the start of day2.

In practice, you should make them aware that this is a "best stack forward" type of reentry tournament and you may very well abandon day1A stack in order to pursue a larger stack in the following day 1s. If they still wanna keep their investment in just 1 bullet, with no further compensation if the day1A stack gets abandoned, all should be well.

I mean obviously investors are owned something. Player basically played a tournament for them and didn't show up for day 2.

Is there an ICM formula for the percentages? For example, if your 1A stack (with 10% equity to the other satellite players) was 1/5 of the average and your 1B BSF is average (or just over 1/5), what's the calculation of the 1A's new equity %?

I agree that in practice, I don't think most pros would automatically give their 1A investors a % of their 1B/C/D BSF re-entries.

I mean, you're saying that you think most pros would scam their backers. Making day 2 of a tournament and not playing isn't OK, and any reasoned person would be able to understand that.

I hope your assessment is wrong!

Can anybody that had investors in an early flight please post on how you handled re-entry with BSF?

Do you think that all sellers in 2+2, YouStake, etc. that have played in a WPT or other re-entry event should be expected to compute the ICM value of their 1A short stack then credit that value to a future flight that they paid for with their own money?

I'd expect them to either sell for the flights they planned on playing or not play another flight while still in the tournament.

When you are playing with someone else's money it demands you treat their money with respect.

Using an actual situation of a home game satellite winner with 10% equity for the losing participants, he had only 10,000 chips left at the end of 1A, with an average of 72K. He asked the satellite organizer what happens if he decides to re-enter for 1C.

Should he be forbidden from a re-entry option? Is giving up the same 10% equity if his 1C stack makes it to Day 2 good enough, or should it actually be a higher percentage such that it doesn't make sense to risk his own money for a re-entry?

day1a: 10k chips, investors have 10% = 1k chips
day1b/c/d: re-try makes bigger stack @ 30k (for example)

so, invesotrs "own" 1k chips, basically...they could have 10% of 10k...or,...3,3ish% of 30k..going to day 2...

@ this point, day2 has not started...so, there is a decision to be made...this is where som1 saids,. you tell these "investors" before doing rh tournament what hapnes if...if...if...

but, ok...

1 more way: "invesotrs' own 10%, because that's what they "won" or whatever, and they made day2...if some1 wants to try t make that stack not 10k but 3-k, or whatever k, then the investors get to go forwars with a bigger stack...so, someo1 says "invesots alwsy keep 10%"...but, they didn't pay for the other entries...but, did you/he/it tell *** them about these other entries ???

It sounds like..someone was trying to "get out" of that 10% owed..by trying another buy-in, and when they made it, especially a bigger stack, they want to 'drop' those invesotrs..hmmmmmm..that sounds shady??

maybe some1 could offer to 'buy out' those invesotrs??

the problem is....wehn invesotrs think "I have 10%" of this guy in this toruny, wel..."....they think they have 10% until the final table, right?? ...so, terying to tell them "well, day2 you ahve 3,3% now, sorryyyyyyy.."..probably will make every1 maddd...

maybe tell the investors"..hey...went for another day1b/c/d, and hit a a big stack of 30k..thats's3x more than day1a, and have a lot better chance to cash...can you either drop your % (not recommended), or maybe add a few $ (probably better idea) to help pay for that/those extra by-ins?".....maybe som1 says "yeah ok here's a few extra $ to cover those by-ins"...but.....don't expect them to pay much or all!!...maybe they will be nice, maybe not !

who are these investors who are happily buying pieces of a single first entry in a multi-flight, best stack carries MTT?

A lot of home games, underground clubs and casinos have satellites to big events such as the WSOP where other players end up getting a piece of the winner. With the re-entry format having spread like a virus, if it is a non-WSOP event such as the WPT, then this issue of re-entering with BSF will keep coming up.

I have played and will continue to play in rake-free equity satellites to WPT Fallsview on February 16-24, and I will propose that the equity % be carried forward to any re-entries. Thanks for the replies.

Well in all honesty imo you should if! you cash in the tournament pay the backers their money minus the re-entry fee.
But why would you not put this option up before you enter the tourney?, i guess you know the option is there before you enter the tourney right?.

Honesty may not always be to your advantage, but it will serve you much better in the long run
It does not matter how fast the lie is the truth will catch up to him in the long run.
Just saying, and i am not saying you would, only that you shouldn't.

agreed. it's not like this is the only mtt you'll ever play. if you hadn't planned for the contingency and advised backers ahead of time, then scope out the cash games get your name on a few lists and play your 0.5BB with wild abandon.

i'd be a little disappointed if you told me our remaining 1A chips are worthless but i can buy in again at the same rate if i want.

so how do you allow for the contingency before the event? there are costs associated with being forced to play a 0.5BB day 2 stack I'd like to avoid. i think i like an arrangement (either as backer or player) where:

1. player retains an option in all circumstances to assign a value to the backers portion of the remaining stack and surrender it, up to a particular value
2. contribute the remaining value of backer's stake to the next flight.
3. give backer has option to make additional investment up to original % stake

what i'm not sure on is:

(i) the correct valuation of those surrendered chips
(ii) the maximum that the player should have the option to surrender
(iii) whether the chips need to be surrendered before electing to enter 1b, or whether 1b can be entered leaving 1a stack as a live option (best forward), or whether this varies from venue to venue

sry, there's a better version:

1. backer always retains an option to make additional investment up to original % stake on any and all flights entered by player
2. player retains an option in all circumstances to assign a value to the backers portion of a day end stack and surrender it, up to a particular value
3. backer may elect to receive said value in cash or as a contribution to next flight stake (which in practice will always be the latter)

what i'm not sure on is:

(i) the correct valuation of those surrendered chips
(ii) the maximum that the player should have the option to surrender
(iii) whether the chips need to be surrendered before electing to enter 1b, or whether 1b can be entered leaving 1a stack as a live option (best forward), or whether this varies from venue to venue

you obviously can't just forfeit a stack (however small) and pay nothing

you should tell investors before hand of your plans and discuss a fair deal. icm wise is not really fair because they probably paid MU due to perceived edge so paying them the cev without edge on abandoned stack is unfair


for the most part if plan multiple bullets for a tournament like this (or in general) you should probably offer some action (ideally the same %s, easier) to investors rather than sell them for day 1a then decide to play day 1b myself

If your abandoned stack is 1/x starting stack just give them 1/x of the share they had on day one in the day two stack.

In your example, when he had 10,000 and wants to abandon and try again, if starting stack was 30,000, just give people 1/3rd of the piece they had at the beginning of day 1.

(sry mods, please delete prev post)

4BB at start day 2 might be

• ~10% starting stack ($10K main event Aussie Mils, 30k start stack, 400/800/100 first up day 2, 4BB = 3200 or 10.6% start stack)
• ~100% starting stack ($1150 opening event Aussie Mils, 10k starting stack, 1.2/2.4/400 first up day 2, 4BB = 9600 or 96% start stack)

10.6% refund seems ok
96% doesn't

K
While I don't think 1/X of original stake suggested by NSB seems fair value in faster structure events
just making it clear that I was asking mods to delete my previous duplicate post, not NSBs

Is ICM actually computable that far out in a mass-field MTT? There is also the problem we don't know the other stack sizes. Chip-chop equity seems like the only option.

I tend to think you just shouldn't abandon your stack and if casual players who don't know the "poker community standard" have pieces of you, you probably shouldn't even re-enter unless everyone is absolutely clear in advance that they don't have a piece of the re-entry. IMHO this is the disadvantage of getting involved in such a deal with casual players, but you were plus EV in the satellite so accept it and go and play cash.

Well this illustrates the problem. Due to ICM, in a fast structure like that the 9600 chips likely has a significantly higher $ value when it's abandoned than the amount of the original buy-in.

How small of a stack is it for it to be correct to play again?

^ I would assume it depends on your edge. If you're ROI in the tournament is 50% then by buying in you achieve half a buy-in of EV. It would be worth abandoning a stack with financial value of less than half a buy-in. Having said that, if you have such a high ROI then some of that comes on later days, so the half-stack you are considering abandoning has a higher value than half.

You should abandon if:

ROI * BuyIn > (ICM Value of Stack*(1+ROI)/(1+AverageFirstDayROI))

where AverageFirstDayROI is your guess at the amount you on average increase the value of your stack over the first day (i.e. the amount of your ROI that comes from the first day). The ROIs above should be decimals rather than percents.

That assumes there is no value in having a free day, either to play cash, sightsee, study, rest. If you think there is some value you need to add that to the right hand side of the inequation.

They're not getting 96% of your equity though, they're getting 96% of THEIR equity. So if someone had 10% of you on day one, they would get 9.6% on day two.

If the stack you're forfeiting is worth 96% of the stack you bought into, you should have to buy out 96% of their equity to forfeit it. In this case, you're buying it out by paying them from your day 2 stack.

^ +1 but you would never abandon a 96% stack though so the answer is never going to instinctively make sense to people.

yes I didn't state it explicitly but I understood the same e.g. if i staked you 50% and you had 9600/10K remaining then $552 equity remains of $575 original stake.

the discussion here seems to have swung 180 degrees from my personal view though.

if i'd staked you for 50% and you offered me 96% of my original stake in a second flight to surrender a 9600 chip stack, I couldn't agree fast enough. imo it's a good deal.

how do 4BB stacks perform historically in large field mtts with 15% of the field remaining and 10% paid? my gut feel is that there would be a dip in value below 20BB and a further dip at 10BB and once again at 5BB, as stack utility and fold equity decrease to nil. (i have no stats to back this up however.)

with 4BB your edge has largely vanished unless you manage to double three times. you have no stack utility. you have no fold equity. your edge was the reason I staked you. with a 4BB stack you're in push/fold mode and even played perfectly there's so little edge remaining. the value of the 4BB is far less than I originally paid for it.

even if there's some markup, i would presumably have analysed your expected ROI and determined that the markup offered was a discount on your true edge in this field and offered a good investment. by removing this edge i am still worse off. (ofc if you'd played like a chip spewing monkey in that first flight, i might decide that it was now in my best interest to ask you to play with your 4BB as this now represented better value than a second flight, but i digress )

icm has to play some part if day 2 field commences somewhat close to the money, but if top 15% go through and 4BB has to last several hours then cEV ~= $EV and i'd prefer your full edge in a new flight.

so how to value the chips? well, i'd be very pleased if you valued them your way and i'd think i had the best of it. if i was the player, vv.