You are probably right, I'm not really that smart when it comes to figuring out 'equity' and stuff, and I have equal affection for all my chips regardless of their fluctuating value. Really, I'm more just like a recreational fish who wants to have fun playing rebuy tournaments without considering the implications of other people making arrangements to gamble before the hand, teaming up and, in effect, colluding.

We can debate whether the rule is good or bad, but the fact that Stars and the WSOP have implemented it as a rule means that someone higher up has put some thought into this and probably determined that this is the most fair thing for all the players entering a tournament, not just high stakes rebuy degens.

On the tangential issue, I didn't realize that Charder dropped a dime on Elky to start this whole thing, and I do think that's kinda weird.

snitches get stitches

but i still <3 charder

I <3 charder too... but...

If he didnt want to get anyone into trouble or screw over anyone maybe next time he can wait until after the WCOOP to complain about an obviously lopsided policy rather than make sure Elky can't play the biggest sunday of the year.

Been lurking MTTc lately checking out the JJ thread and others. I had to pay for all of my rebuys during the WCOOP. I can't speak for everyone else, but I would assume that this is the case for everyone else on team PokerStars.

Gavin

I'm so tired of hearing about this ****.

Its a rule. YOU ARE PROFESSIONAL POKER PLAYERS. You are telling me you spend hours a day playing poker, discussing poker, studying poker,etc and don't even know the rules?

No...thats not the problem. You know the rules. Annette broke this rule and was caught...TWICE.

Almost everyone knows this rule is there, but they thinks its stupid or something. It is there to protect honest players. If they allowed this colluding in rebuys would be extremely easy. Do you want collusion running rampant or would you like for stars to enforce a rule that creates a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

None of you are stupid. You don't just do things because you feel like it. You do it because you profit from it. If you didn't think flipping in rebuys was +EV would you do it?
NO!

Its provides you an advantage that players who follow the rules don't have.

FYI that is practically the definition of cheating.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to pick and choose which rules are worthy of your following.

Very well said

im not so sure about this. but i agree with the "its a rule, so thats that" argument. you can fight the rules by emailing stars and saying this is bull****, etc., but you cant do it by just breaking them.

Where would we be if Rosa Parks had just sent an email?

In a really strange alternative universe / wacky sci-fi history movie...

(Not really sure if Rosa Parks would approve of her struggle being compared to the fight against flipping during the rebuy period of a donkament. But I could be wrong...)

OT

I still love you Charder

I just noticed this thread today, i was at the table with Elky and Brainwash when this happened, i thought it was worth noting that at one point in the chat one of them said something like: when everyone else folds we will do it, or if everyone else folds, something to that extent. That really changes the dynamic of it, makes it alot more like collusion as it basically makes it impossible that them and only them will not end up with enormous stacks. No one else asked and i highly doubt they would be excluded from it if they had, but discussing the flipping in this way seemed to make it worse. At first they were just openly agreeing to go all-in everyhand, then when brainwash had alot of chips i think it was him that said they would only do it when everyone else was out. Futhermore, after the rebuy period was over and while on break, about 15 internet poker notables came in the chat and then informed Ekly and Brainwash that what they had done was illegal and that funds were likely to be confiscated. After that, Elky played a hand where he made a loose call on the river and explained that he did it to "give chips back" or maybe because he wasnt gonna be able to keep any winnings. It ultimatly changed the dynamic of it for the other players at the table. I busted the next hand where i had AA and Elky made a healthy checkraise on the flop and i was faced with wondering if the entire scandal and the things said in the chat widened his range to where he might be weaker. I also was at at 6 handed table where 2 people had like 10 times the stack i did, which made me less likely to make a big laydown. Im not saying i would have folded otherwise, i probably wouldn't have, but it sucked to have to wonder about these other things that resulted from the whole debacle. I like Elky, ive played with him live, and i respect him, and i know 100% that he didnt mean anything bad by it, it was all in fun. But i did leave the tournament, very early, and with a bitter taste in my mouth. I thought this might shed some light on why they have this rule..I also cant help but wonder it the people that were redistributed money were the ones that had the most equity stolen from them in this instance..
Just my 2 cents..
Crice25

i kind of foresaw some nit making this argument and have decided that you probably realize its stupid and i dont need to respond to it

Uh, it was a joke?

Edit: Along the lines of "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

meh, all was true if it wasn't for the later posts, in which he emails stars about elky not getting banned immediately after (and therefore not play the last wcoop events). While I couldn't care less if elky is banned or not, insisting that the ban starts immediately is moving charder straight into the "wtf is wrong with you" column.

Oh, and matt, that was such an obvious joke. you're suppose to be better at this.

its hard to detect sarcasm in text =/ and if it was a movie reference it flew right over my head.

edit:

eek, sorry my forum skills arent up to snuff dudes

This seems pretty ridiculous given that if it happened to charder right now, he would almost certainly be banned for the main event.

well said, i was on your table too. I agree with most, except the part where you think elky is doing this for fun and with no bad meaning.

he obviously did this to gain unfair advantage.

ElkY speaking here.

I would like to sincerely apologize to the Poker Community for my behavior in the 500$rebuy tournament of the WCOOP, and clarify the situation as much as possible.

First of all, i really didn't know about the rule forbidding going AI blind in tournaments, as i did it with Imperium in a 100r a few years back in believe and never got anything for it. Would have been aware of the rule, i obviously would have never broke it.

Now my main reason for doing it was mostly fun, as i never believe it's +EV for me, because i don't get any premium on any rebuys or add-on. Obviously people at the table are aware of brainwash and me open-shoving any2 and can call correctly.

As i was 30 minutes late in the tournament, i just felt like getting some chips and agreed with brainwash to move in on next hand for 3 hand straight, then we agreed to keep going until one of us wants to stop. We would go all in any time it was folded to us, quite often at a 6-max table...

Then one hand came up where i was bb, and 2 guys limped to brainwash while he was time banking for his decision, and i said this looks suspicious, lets skip that one, because i didn't mind giving money away, but just not really in that spot.

Whatever we kept on going few more hands until sheets started talking on chat how what we were doing was stupid and against the rule. I never heard of the Annette-Charder situation before, but i believed sheets instantly of course and brainwash and me both stopped and apologized.

So i went on to play the event and cashed 15th for 10.7k after investing 10k in it.

The day after i get an email from stars management telling me they confiscated my prize money.

I guess as they did it for people before and i broke the rule, even if i was unaware of it at the time, it's only a fair punishment.

As you guys must know, i don't participate in online communities for different reasons.

I don't harbor any bad feeling towards Christian Harder that i met few times and i think he's a nice guy. I would have done differently but it doesn't matter.

I love the game of poker and will try all i can to be the best ambassador of it.

I really hope i didn't offend any of you guys and you can take my word for it.

Sincerely,

Bertrand "ElkY" Grospellier

you sound way too sane & classy for this place.

This whole matter brings the pure gamble vs skill debate to the forefront. Flipping is pure gamble. Rationalize the structure, the dynamics, etc all you want, there is no game aspect to the practice. Yes, it adds to the chips in play at your table. And turns a $500 to a $5,000 tourney. But is it really poker? So IMO, good for Pokerstars to suspend him.

What the **** are you even talking about?

Nice, classy response Elky, except for the bolded part. You've been a pro for years, and you're seriously telling me that even if you didn't know the specific Stars rule, you thought that this was in no way unethical or likely to be construed as collusion?

WTF @ Elky's response, exactly the bolded part above.

So Elky didn't think it was wrong to inflate him and another player's stack and not give any of the other 4 players a chance to have a shot at a big stack at the same time? This is ridiculously WTF, I mean as a pro poker player who has had a ton of success how can you not think this is VERY WRONG?

I'm not 100% but didn't Annette/Christian just go all-in in a rebuy tourney at random, not just when the were iso'd in the pot(this seems not nearly as bad as what elky/brainwash did)?

To explicitly agree to only do it when the two were heads up turns this into much more than some innocent mistake.


IMO, obv.

one time i was BTN and had Aces and it was folded around to me and i said

Flip me and then went all In

while i was angleshootnig foooshoooo, was i cheating this rule?

kinda cool that elky and charder are both deep in WCOOP ME hehe