Sorry for the following rant, but it's an interesting subject that's been bugging me for a while now.
So in Multi-table tournaments, many of the top players back a large group of mid-high stakes grinders. Many of the top backers practice ghosting, taking over a deep run of one of their horses. This is very noticeable to me as a HUD user, and although it might just be a complete switch of gears, the fact that all the sizings of bets as well as the frequency of 3bets, check raises, and other plays rises considerably. The tendencies of the backed player to play more like the backer the deeper they get becomes obvious.
I've met many broke backers who didn't ghost. I've met many rich ones who have ghosted. As a community, can we do anything about this? It seems like such a tacit agreement among the top backers that everyone keep their mouth shuts while ghosting is going on. I have not outed or plan to out any of the top players who have admitted to it. I have witnessed first hand multi-accounting.
The reality is their are huge names here all cheating. I don't want to be an outcast from the poker community, but all you players are getting cheated by the very best in the community and as someone who is retiring it kind of makes me sick. We need to do something to prevent multi-accounters to suck up the rois that remain in the MTT community. Even just posting a list of top players and who they back so we might have some idea of why a mid-high stakes player just switched his gears dramatically, would be very helpful to all players.
I don't want to out people, these people are my friends. These people I generally consider moral. I got a house with all my horses in Vegas right before Black Friday on the advice of some of the better backers. I was just as guilty in the past when I decided to try and do this for the first 3 months of 2011. Do we want to anything as a community or is it just too undetectable/provable and too deep-rooted a problem?
This is very deep-rooted problem, very hard to combine a list as well. Unfortunately, I believe Stars allows this as long as the player on this account is the one clicking the buttons.
The ways Stars Could Stop it all don't seem feasible/possible:
If your stars client is open, Disable all Social Sites? Skype, AIM, FB, etc?
Have a Camera on your computer with Video on so that we know nobody is voicing actions to you, hand signals, etc?
Allow Pokerstars to have access to your phone so you aren't using this deep during MTT's?
I hope you find a solution Squee, I'm just not sure there is one.
why didnt u post here in april 11 then? so attention whorish its unbelievable
Last edited by kleath; 10-03-2013 at 08:14 PM.
Reason: lol look at me i know something u dont but not gonna tell u anything or even tell u i know til i stop playing... gtfo
As a community, can we do anything about this? It seems like such a tacit agreement among the top backers that everyone keep their mouth shuts while ghosting is going on. I have not outed or plan to out any of the top players who have admitted to it. I have witnessed first hand multi-accounting.
I mean you just answered your own question, you're the one creating the thread and even you won't give names, what makes you think anyone else will?
Why is it hard to combine a list of players? I think we could definitely start one and have people add to it. Kleath, just knowing you took the time to read my post leaves me smiling bigger than you can know!
I am not willing to give out names of ghosters I have caught, I am willing to help try to catalog everyone who is backed or is backing and try to create a google docs that is accessible to the community. Would that be a reasonable thing to do? I'll include people I know for a fact don't ghost as well. I just think non-backed players need a resource like this to even out the field.
Last edited by Squee451; 10-03-2013 at 08:19 PM.
Reason: I wanted Kleath to read my reason to edit.
I am not willing to give out names of ghosters I have caught, I am willing to help try to catalog everyone who is backed or are backing and try to create a google docs that is accessible to the community. Would that be a reasonable thing to do? I'll include people I know for a fact don't ghost as well. I just think non-backed players need a resource like this to even out the field.
So you're not willing to give confirmed ghosters, rather you'll just lump every single backed player together and just assume they're all being ghosted?
I'm sure a list will be helpful but not sure it solves the problem.
It's going to be a lot more difficult than oh XXX is backed by Elio/Zima so Elio is ghosting him or XXX is backed by ZZZ and YYY is in his Stable so YYY must be ghosting XXX
It doesn't solve the problem, but it provides a fix that is non-accusatory, only stating what can reliably be determined. Zima/Elio back xxxx, Bryn backs xxxx, Sorel backs xxxx, Gipsyteam Russia backs xxx. Just putting all that info together would be a good start no?
limiting this just to backers and horses is pretty unfair since just as much ghosting, if not more, goes on amongst groups of friends whether they're in financial arrangements with each other or not. So what are you going to do---catalog every clique in poker?
If you want to make a list, just make a list of ppl you KNOW have ghosted or whatever. Just posting who's backed by who accomplishes very little AND creates unfair presumptions in the community.
Shane that's a very good point, I did not consider that and it's a huge problem. I have immediately regretted posting this, and would like to go back in time. Is there a mod here to help me out?
I'm incredibly short-sighted, I don't consider myself dumb. I have talked over hands and changed my decisions because of it. This is fundamental multi-accounting, and I'm hard-pressed to name a reg who has NEVER done that. Has anyone posting never asked advice on a hand and than taken that advice?
Last edited by Squee451; 10-03-2013 at 08:51 PM.
Reason: I do not write eloquently or correctly.
I'm incredibly short-sighted, I don't consider myself dumb. I have talked over hands and changed my decisions because of it. This is fundamental multi-accounting, and I'm hard-pressed to name a reg who has NEVER done that. Has anyone posting never asked advice on a hand and than taken that advice?
OPs intentions obv were good ones, i can imagine how tough the situation is. who wants to be a snitch? as stupid as it sounds, like the only way would be if someone who knows a lot makes a 2nd account here and posts stuff anonymously. and if i think a certain backer has ghosted one of his horses, knowing who all of his horses are would help A LOT. i mean if i was a backer and i wasnt doing anything shady i had zero problem with people knowing who is backed by me! just post who's connected with who, would def help everybody imo. would help me for sure at least.
my respect grew so much for you Squee451 because you admitted that you actually did it too when you backed.
As for this ****storm , it s impossible to solve.
As someone pointed out , a lot of friends do this as well and ask for a % etc. Ive seen it happen right in front of me.
I think my plan to battle this is to just always say " stop getting ghosted , im just gonna report you already " and hope that awful bluff works.
the focus isnt even on the right ****, you want to bitch about ma's the big problem isnt the backers ghosting its the ronaldkoshs and gboros of the world grinding full schedules on fresh accounts, or a new uraguan account that plays just like sixthsense every month, or shared accounts that have 100% of cals tendencies on a random day. Hmm havent seen noctus in a while guess he mustve quit backing and playing. ghosting is one thing, not saying its not a grey area at best and scummy at its worst but vast majority of backer horse ghosting ive experienced is horse goes hey think im gonna fold here backer says sure go for it, thats a whole different level than giving someone a proverbial blank face and giving them 100% control over decisions when they have history with heaps of the field. props to the few non ******s who still play on their own name, its getting rarer and rarer
Last edited by kleath; 10-03-2013 at 10:46 PM.
Reason: your mothers should be ashamed you spineless ****s
Its also a question of where do you draw the line. Virtually every MTTer out there has at one point or another said "Hey dude, what do you think about this spot?" And I don't think there are too many people who have a problem with that. But as you ask more and more questions in game it becomes more and more problematic. Its just impossible to say at what exact point does it cross the line from innocent advice seeking to malicious cheating. Also, does intent matter? Does the ghoster having a financial interest matter? Does the prestige of the tournament matter?
Its a very complicated issue without a very clear cut answer. Stars could only allow 1 IP/account but that's easy to get around and not practical at all, especially since there are probably more poker houses now than there were pre-bf.
I'm not even entirely convinced whistle-blowing would really do anything since most any claims are impossible to prove and its such a pervasive issue that almost everyone is at least a little guilty.
