60 > 40 stlll?

Is 100 > 40?

biggest swing was like 40k with an avg buyin of 100$ and playing an average of 25 tables, mixed with bad game in the end, and many hs mtts and turbos. (not wcoop)
thought that was really gross and much but cant think of any serious downswings with more than 600 avg buyins lost in the normal grinding schedule unless the player plays worse than normal or cant beat the stakes


these things are pretty tilting tho if ur playing on your own.. but tbh like many others stated here i dont think its easier to play baked since having to grind out like 50k on mu is really depressing and demotivating

its always intriguing to hear people say "man, grinding out of 50k MU is depressing and demotivating". if you werent backed, you woulda lost that 50k, right? so, the first 50k you "make back" is just the same regardless, right? why is it less motivating? maybe cause when you make it all back, you "only" get 50% of the profits if you hit a decent score?

I never get backed but yeah i guess your point has merits. however, in the end you play the game to make money but not to prove to the world u can beat top players even tho being able to beat top players=make money. Personally, I have large enough of a bankroll to support me playing everything online and i can handle 100k or 200k downswing no problem,but i know being in a 200k downswing will for sure make me very sad and most likely will affect my game even i can handle it money wise. So why would i even want to be in that situation in the first place while i know i can still make almost(or even higher) the same profits by simply game select well?
Also, for the improving as a player part, different strategy is required for say daily 320 6max and big22. There's simply no need to know how to play the game where the whole tourney is full of moorman mement mori etc , as it goes back to the first part we simply shouldnt be playing the game full of top regs so we dont really bother to know how to beat them.(well, if we can find the way somehow) Like if u find moorman sits on your left in big22, just stay out of his way cos it won't cost u much ev anyways.
that might just be me, so lacking of ego these days, so miss those good old days when i would just play 162 with like 1k in my account and fml when bubbled the money,lol

obv there are problems with this common thought process, but the main reason ppl think like this is because when you are in MU, any profit until you clear MU you get 0, whereas if you aren't backed, and you went on a 50k downswing, any profit you get 100% of.. but obv if you aren't backed, you "lose" the 50k and when you're backed you just go in mu etc, there's pros and cons to being staked or not etc etc. i don't have any issues personally with motivation etc altho to be fair i haven't had massive mu before i guess.

no idea how to respond to that.

Agree that being in MU is more depressing overall without a correct adjustment to your mindset, then being down 50k of your own money.. Even being down, you start your day with the BR you have and the profit you make that day would be a direct profit of the bankroll you started with..

Lets say we start with 50K makeup and win 40K.. we are very happy that day because we are now only down 10K.. But we are still down...

On our own dime. we had 50K BR left and we won 40K. we now have 90K bankroll. We are still down 10 from our initial start bankroll, but the feeling is so much better... We actually get to see a change.. If we want to suddenly cash-out 20k because we really need it for some reason. We can.. So I guess it's more of a feeling of freedom.

Obv, in the long run, there is no difference (besides, assuming 50/50, we earn twice as much).

Edit: I think another reason here is. The above example. We suddenly (disregard the 50K we lost) have an extra $40K in our hands to do with what we want... If we want another $40K in our hands while being 50K in MU, it looks like such a long road; $50K MU + $40K backer + $40K horse = $130K...

Obviously in with our new $40K in hand, it's not actuall profit. But who cares? It's our own money in the end and we are capable of doing with it, whatever we want. (go back, read freedom speech above :P and repeat).

From my point of view, battling and playing with top players will make you a better player, which in the long run will result in you having a higher ROI in every game you are going to play.

Obviously our strategy is diff from a 320 daily 6m then that in a big22..
But Poker is a competitive game and (often phrased movie quote ) "to become to best you have to beat the best..".
Becoming the best you can be will be a costly learning process in a game like poker. You'll play higher variance games, experiment new styles and tricks and often spew learning to do so. You bust in situations where it's not all that necessary and you play against players, who from an optimal point of view, you shouldn't be playing against.

While this is not optimal in terms of money in the short run.
In the long run you'll stay on top of the pack longer and getting better has it's benefits. You'll be able to exploit players in the big22 a lot harder and your edge will get bigger in games like the 320 6m.

I think it depends all on your competitive drive, ego, how much variance you are willing to accept and what you want to achieve out of poker (its not always about $EV).

** enjoying this topic. thanks all for contributing.

This makes 0 sense. It doesn't matter if you're backed or not. If you're 50k deep and bink an MTT for $49k, you still get 0 profit. I see no reason ones mentality would be any different other than the fact they weren't initially rolled for the 50k in the first place and are in debt. Or as zima said, tilt because they only get 50% of the actual profits and see this as a -ve side to grinding back mu.

it does make sense.. when your in staking you have to play the same games over and over till ur out of makeup - for someone else. even gets worse if u dont like the person or ur not connected with him. if you on your own money, you can change games, go down in stakes, take breaks, play other sites or do whatever you want.

but when you are stacked, you have to play the same schedule, the same games for a very long time from which you dont earn anything. thats a very depressing routine, like going day in and out to a job which u dont like.
thats not why most ppl started playing poker.. they wanted to have the freedom to do whatever they want, which is the complete opposite to grinding out huge amounts of makeup


/edit

just a sidenote.. i think thats why its quite bad to stake randoms in highstakes or big staking deals.. doubt they play their best if theyre much in makeup for a rando

I mean to be clear this isn't how I think, nor has it ever been a reason why I acted differently being staked or something.. I was just trying to help you understand how people think. To me it's obvious, but you are someone who primarily stakes rather than plays so I get that it can be harder for you to see stuff like that. I don't agree with the thought process, obviously it is a little illogical and doesn't consider the entire picture, but it is the reason (some) people are less motivated or play less in MU.

i dont see how being in makeup (meaning: you need to get out in order to make $$$) takes away any incentive to grind. it should be one of the motivating factors.#gottaeat

why should a backer make a horse play the same schedule? you act like all stakers force their horses to grind stuff like a slave driver er something, and they dont take into account whats actually best for the horse (and in turn the staking agreement).

I feel like you have a pretty distorted view of what staking is.

fresh' first comment was pretty spot on, i've been backed and am currently unbacked. When in makeup you don't feel as satisfied winning x$ to clear more MU, just like when you lose you don't feel like you've really lost in a sense, since it's not your money your losing. With that said, when you lose X$ when unbacked it's alot worse than when being backed since it is your money.

lol no i know alot of guys who are staked, have been staked for a short period some years ago myself, i am staking people and talk about that stuff with horses a lot.. so i know pretty much how those things work.

thats just my view combined with the impressions and words i got from those different horses..
its obv that u as a backer wanna see it differently

omg stop posting, i want to delete your internet

do u even play poker anymore?

Cliffs:

- losing 50k is better than being in 50k makeup
- you can't drop down in stakes, play different sites, or take breaks if you're backed
- the worst thing about staking randoms at hsmtts is they could get demotivated when deep in mu
- backed players play the same schedule every day and hate it
- your you're

yes

in september/october i was in my biggest downswing like 15k at 75avg buy in (aprox). i have a very flexible relationship with my backer, we talk a lot about shcedules, and he gave me freedom to play the games where more comfortable i feel and i played with a lot of motivation all october, november and december and i have good results. i think it depends of the attitude of the horse, the relationship with backer(very important!), and the personal motivation that every poker player needs to have.

ok

Dropping 200 buyins at a 75 abi is not a downswing. That's a session.

Do you even lift?

there's probably a bunch of psychological forces at play here. i think it could be demotivating because it's going to be so long before they put money back in their own pocket, regardless of where their start point was. someone who is unbacked can just start making money again from whatever point in their downswing, but someone who is backed and in mu knows that its so unlikely he makes money in any given tournament/session. or they might be in 50k mu straight up after just starting a backing deal and have no money of their own for living expenses etc.

they mightn't have put themselves in a scenario that they could go broke in if they were unbacked (drop down, grind out rent or something), but when backed they can get into situations in MU where they are just stuck with no money, little hope of seeing money soon.

this