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Limit-->NL Discussion for experienced Limit Hold'em players wanting to learn or transition to No Limit Hold'em

 
 
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:24 PM   #1
Movado
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Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

I am a long time limit player who has started taking on NL seriously (recreation) in 2016. The problem I am having is c betting when I miss the flop. When I raise pre-flop or 3 bet pre-flop with hands such as AQ+ and am called in 1 or more spots, I can't find a 3 bet when I miss. This turns my hand face up as I check fold even with dry boards.

An advice on how to get over this other than firing a c bet or is it just mental?

If in position and fire a c bet, ok to check the turn in position for showdown value on the river?

I struggle as I play tight and always fold when bet into as it's dead money when I don't hit. Just looking for some advise or drills to get over this major leak.

Thanks
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:50 PM   #2
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

Always observe your opponents when the flop is spread, and notice how they re-act, and if you feel they miss, bet.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:10 PM   #3
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Always observe your opponents when the flop is spread, and notice how they re-act, and if you feel they miss, bet.
Mike Caro ITT.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:42 PM   #4
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Mike Caro ITT.


Mike Caro had a way of making it simple for amateurs to beat poker with basic strategy advice and tells. I've been playing some low limit spread live, and this is absolutely good advice against the weak sauce. Mike Caro won't make you a world champion, because not everyone is going to give you info about what their hand is so easily, but definitely like his advice on just about anything at the lower limits. The higher up you go, the less tells there are but, there's always tells. And, I think Mike Caro's psychology deserves a shout-out too rather than Mason Malmuth's "mathematical model of tilt".

Also, wear a hat. Sunglasses are kind'a unfriendly, but a hat is super standard and you can hide your eyes adequately against the weak sauce.

And Zachary Elwood's book is also super strong in the tells category.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:46 PM   #5
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

Just want to point out that the suggested strategy backfires horribly vs opponents that check raise at a decent frequency.

I prefer to read the board and the situation.
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Old 04-28-2017, 07:19 PM   #6
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

Yeah, op should know that AQ plays much worse in NL. You're never going to feel great about second best kicker, at least great enough to stack someone. And you do not want to 100% cbet. In NL it is somewhat more important to play the players to maximize EV. K hi flops are probably my fav to cbet as a bluff w AQ.
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:03 PM   #7
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Yeah, op should know that AQ plays much worse in NL. You're never going to feel great about second best kicker, at least great enough to stack someone. And you do not want to 100% cbet. In NL it is somewhat more important to play the players to maximize EV. K hi flops are probably my fav to cbet as a bluff w AQ.
My issue w/ K hi boards is that a good NL player knows that's actually not a good board for an UTG player.

Like take software like Poker Cruncher, say you slide until you've ~10% of hands and say "okay I want to raise these hands from EP and fold everything else". Well, on like K43, you'll have a set 2.55%, an overpair 5.17% (these #s are obviously off on the sim, but whatever its close), and top pair 25.7%. So only about one third of your hands can continue against a check raise based on the merit of the hand alone if you c-bet 100%.

But yes, OP, that's a huge consideration in NL: how many streets of value that you think you can get. Like in FL, you 3 bet someone's HJ open with AJ, flop A82 and you've a no brainer bet bet bet. In NL, you'd want to be much more careful as people will be folding more post, leaving continuing ranges stronger.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:29 PM   #8
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Just want to point out that the suggested strategy backfires horribly vs opponents that check raise at a decent frequency.

I prefer to read the board and the situation.
There's playing the players, and playing the cards. Weak players, you can tell when they like the flop, and those times you do not c-bet, and definitely do not get check-raised. For the most part, weak players just do not check-raise, and they are in live NL games everywhere. And, I'm all about maximizing against the weak players before shoring-up with GTO against the stronger players. That's where the money is in low-limit NL players. Then as you move-up, and find tougher competition, read-up about how to play against tougher players with a more math-based approach.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:38 PM   #9
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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My issue w/ K hi boards is that a good NL player knows that's actually not a good board for an UTG player.

Like take software like Poker Cruncher, say you slide until you've ~10% of hands and say "okay I want to raise these hands from EP and fold everything else". Well, on like K43, you'll have a set 2.55%, an overpair 5.17% (these #s are obviously off on the sim, but whatever its close), and top pair 25.7%. So only about one third of your hands can continue against a check raise based on the merit of the hand alone if you c-bet 100%.

But yes, OP, that's a huge consideration in NL: how many streets of value that you think you can get. Like in FL, you 3 bet someone's HJ open with AJ, flop A82 and you've a no brainer bet bet bet. In NL, you'd want to be much more careful as people will be folding more post, leaving continuing ranges stronger.
My thinking is play AQ as though you have AK, and AK as though you have AQ, and consider checking back the pairs under a K, against a tougher opponent. This is my sad attempt at the game theory. I call it the (one paint off) approach, and basically pretend I have three cards instead of two with a hand. That way I may be bluffing suboptimally, but definately closer to optimally. It'll be a long time before computers play NL optimally, if ever. Probably never. You decide whether or not you have second hand (or a third card) before the flop, and what that is. With a wired pair, it's just a wired pair. I am curious as to your thoughts to this make-shift bluff-range.
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Old 05-02-2017, 07:50 PM   #10
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by Movado View Post
I am a long time limit player who has started taking on NL seriously (recreation) in 2016. The problem I am having is c betting when I miss the flop. When I raise pre-flop or 3 bet pre-flop with hands such as AQ+ and am called in 1 or more spots, I can't find a 3 bet when I miss. This turns my hand face up as I check fold even with dry boards.

An advice on how to get over this other than firing a c bet or is it just mental?

If in position and fire a c bet, ok to check the turn in position for showdown value on the river?

I struggle as I play tight and always fold when bet into as it's dead money when I don't hit. Just looking for some advise or drills to get over this major leak.

Thanks
Against standard opponents, you should not be 3 betting AQ, and should just pass. You should also strongly consider passing AK (even suited), and JJ (maybe even QQ depending on where the raises are from and who the opponents are) to a three bet. Also against weaker opponents you should consider just calling with JJ-- because your edge is going to be so much greater after the flop, and if a big pot brews, you have such odds on the set. Just be sure to get away from the over-pair if you're facing too much action. Also, the NL at the Horseshoe on weekends is a great game to be in. I played it years ago, and from what I here, it's still great.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:00 PM   #11
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
My thinking is play AQ as though you have AK, and AK as though you have AQ, and consider checking back the pairs under a K, against a tougher opponent. This is my sad attempt at the game theory. I call it the (one paint off) approach, and basically pretend I have three cards instead of two with a hand. That way I may be bluffing suboptimally, but definately closer to optimally. It'll be a long time before computers play NL optimally, if ever. Probably never. You decide whether or not you have second hand (or a third card) before the flop, and what that is. With a wired pair, it's just a wired pair. I am curious as to your thoughts to this make-shift bluff-range.
I'm no expert at GTO in NL, but the way I'd construct my range in this spot is:

Bet 100%: AK, AA, KK, QJs w/ BDFD, QTs w/ BDFD, A9s w/ BDFD

Bet near 100%: KQ

From there, I can add more from my air bucket and value bucket depending on opponent. Like if he's a station that will call down with any king, any pocket pair between 55-QQ, KTs becomes a viable three street hand.

Constructing bluff ranges are often weird in these narrow spots because a lot of the times, the hands you actually want to "bluff" with are actually best. Also clearly in these spots, we want to bet small. Example:

We have AQ and open to 3x UTG, SB flats and BB folds

7 BB, K43r

He checks. If we bet like 3-4 bb and he calls, no big deal, we'll almost always have some equity and will now at least buy ourselves 5 cards. We bet 7 and he calls, we get the same effect, it just cost us more $ to realize (and will let BB bet more when we hit our most likely "good" hand, one pair).

But yeah, i'd rather just find all the hands I want to go three streets with and then work some bluffs in from the bottom of my range.

Last edited by jdr0317; 05-02-2017 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:42 PM   #12
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
We have AQ and open to 3x UTG, SB flats and BB folds
I thought we were 3-betting? Or did I misread the OP? Oh, he said both scenarios in the OP. It's best to have an approach as you described before going in, otherwise one'll wind-up bluffing based on mood, slowplaying based on mood, etc. which makes one a somewhat vulnerable opponent.

I think slowplaying KK in a rainbow board is potentially a good play here. You have the deck crushed, and it's harder to get a large value-bet against someone who may potentially have a monster, thinking defensively.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:52 PM   #13
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

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But yeah, i'd rather just find all the hands I want to go three streets with and then work some bluffs in from the bottom of my range.
Thanks for your post.

My fav bluffs in NL instead of AQ after reading your post is perhaps 22,33 in the rainbow dry boards. You can still hit the two-outer, and is sometimes best. And when you hit your hand, it's very well disquised adding the value if you hit.

The other day, I saw someone betting max, spread limit, with AJ hi on a dry board all three streets, other guy called his bluff with AT and lost. You just never know.

With connectedness, I'd take the gutshots w/ an over. With suitedness the A-hi flush draws. But, it seems like many players do that now, so it's not all that deceptive.

There are so many different flop variations, you'd essentially be building an encyclopedia that would more than rival John Nunn's encyclopedia of chess openings.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 05-02-2017 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:46 PM   #14
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

Of course, as I forgot, you'd actually have to be playing 22. Instead you can simply take your bottom range pp and turn it into a bluff, but I think there's something to be said about playing 22 like AA.

#1 You may actually be good.
#2 You may hit and get paid off
#3 You confuse your opponents as to your range. They will assume it's "any pocket pair", when really it's AA-TT,22 for example.

A major drawback though is 22 can be out-setted, and also theoretically AA-99 is stronger minus the psychology. It suffers from reverse-implied odds, but it has some positive meta-game characteristics.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:21 PM   #15
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

On reflection, your opponent does not need to know the exatitude of your pocket pair on the vast majority of flops, because a set is a set for the most part, and if they think you have a set, then it doesn't matter it's 22. So, it'd be better to add 65s into the deceptive range, and take-out a marginal hand, in order to play the meta-game on what someone's range is and isn't. With a large player pool like in Hammond, IN (like 20 tables going day and night, almost all NL games), then you're constantly playing with different players.\, and your opponents will think you're playing looser than you actually are. Also, a range in NL should somewhat disquise whether a flop helped or not, so having some coordinated hitters in there should help.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 05-03-2017 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:43 PM   #16
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Re: Struggling with C Betting when Flop is missed (advice)

If you have a comfortable bankroll it sounds like you just need to make the committment to be more aggressive. AQ is not a really good hand to play out of position in no limit. Just remember it is just as hard for your opponents to make hands but if you use positional advantage to up yr aggression you will fare better. J10 suited on the button you might try 3 betting while AK or AQ out of position you might try pot control pre flop. How much you buy in for is also important. I always have and always will like limit better but Im slightly profitable nl perhaps 5k a year nothing major I will def just fold AJ n AQ out of position at times I would much rather play small pairs, suited broadway connectors and suited aces in late position.
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