so how long has POG put up with Systo again?

2 and a half years or so

I mean I could have wrote an article saying:

"I like wolfing because I think everyone on earth is easy to manipulate and fool and if you thought more like me then you could too! The end."

But thats not productive right?

You might reflect upon the fact that your post does not say what you are now saying you wanted it to say, rather than acting intellectually superior because you failed to convey your unbelievably brilliant thought process. . .

I'm starting to think that the systolic/everyone back and forth isn't helping this thread progress and I'd really rather not see this thread ruined

No

My point in the post is clear as crystal

You have projected ideas onto it that arent there

omg everyone stfu

Posts that are systo-centric as opposed to being idea-centric could be deleted i suppose.

I agree with this

People cant just read what I have to say without resorting to attacks against me

They never did that with Deans article

At this point I'm taking your point - which is explicitly the opposite of what you expressed in your post - to be that everyone should be genuine in the greater WW game of POG, and that by way of example your genuine approach to the world is to manipulate via argument and to cause chaos because that is how you are most comfortable.

So you are only advocating out of game thread manipulation because, by way of example, that is the real you. If a hypothetical person were happy go lucky and scrupulously respectful, I assume your advice to them would be to always be happy go lucky and scrupulously respectful.

I assume you would NOT recommend they begin manipulating people, because that would again mean your position is incoherent because self-contradictory.

I take from this that your intended point was simply to be yourself.

My cynical conclusion is that you wrote the post to explain that you are particularly awesome because your genuine self is a manipulator who likes to argue and cause chaos, which you have found to be beneficial to your WW game.

Which is to say you wrote the post because you wanted to tell us you are awesome.

I have confidence in my werewolf game. I wouldn't make an article if I didn't.

And yes, this is basically 100% correct.

And I didn't write the post to say I'm awesome.. I obviously don't expect to get approval from people, so emphasizing specifically how amazing I am isn't going to do any good.

I generalized it (or at least tried to) so that it WOULDN'T come across that way.

Because no matter how much you wiggle around about the topic, the fact is that your advice in the post is to actively manipulate your meta to balance ranges. That is incoherent if you simultaneously mean to encourage us to always be genuine - i.e., forego any manipulation of our meta.

I think people act like balancing ranges is a bad thing

WHEN EVERYONE FREAKING DOES IT

By saying 'Act like a villager all the time, it helps your wolf game'

You know what that is?

BALANCING RANGES FFS

omg ffs guys

Systo, I challenge you to remove the assumption that everyone's social baseline in POG is to actively manipulate all the time, and then think about these posts for ~ 20 minutes. Then tell me how your post could be applied by anyone who does not by nature seek to manipulate opportunistically at all times that they are posting in POG.

fwiw this is how I always understood Systo's article (as I also explained earlier in thread before all this started)

and that is why I also said that the advice weren't really applicable because it's already mostly applied by ppl (since they're nice guys who play best when being nice in ww games or whatever)

/thread

If that's what he intended why is he discussing active manipulation of anything? That is not manipulation if it's simply inevitable.

His post takes pains to make it clear that it's NOT inevitable though, it's instead opportunistic.

Which means it is not genuine, it is strategic.

Which means the post is incoherent.

You can't argue with Systolic. It won't work. All you can do is lynch him in every game until he gets the point.

The problem with this post Hoya is that you are applying a social norm to the concept

And you are also assuming that most people have genuinely positive motives

When the truth is that none of us ever know

I'm sure that there are people in POG who manipulate and might even see this article as beneficial to them in that respect, but they would never admit it like I would.

Why?

Because they give a **** about public opinion and because they probably cant handle the pressure of being a negatively viewed public figure

What are you talking about? My post contains no assumptions. It is asking YOU to REMOVE one and then tell me how THAT PERSON can use your advice?

Like take hibiscus, who is basically the nicest person ever. How does she use your advice?

I agree. And that's why I chose to just take the following away from it:

Its irrelevant because we cant determine the percentages of people who are and arent genuinely manipulative by nature

That is your assumption, the idea that a majority of the people in POG arent genuinely manipulative

. . . there's no statement of the sort. I'm asking you IF a player does not share your baseline motives and positions, and instead naturally approaches the world in a non-confrontational way, what do they take from your post?