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Old 05-30-2017, 08:08 PM   #26
leavesofliberty
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Re: Stratego anyone?

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Originally Posted by Gabethebabe View Post
Is there any decent AI available online?
Not that I know of. A decent AI is not likely to happen any time soon, because it's more complicated than Chess. Also, there's less people playing Stratego than Chess.
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:51 PM   #27
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Re: Stratego anyone?

last multiplayer game I ever played (as a kid obv) I won in 2 moves and then said "I'm never playing you in any game ever again".

I kept my word but sigh @ bad things you say as a kid...
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Old 05-30-2017, 11:58 PM   #28
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Re: Stratego anyone?

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Not that I know of. A decent AI is not likely to happen any time soon, because it's more complicated than Chess. Also, there's less people playing Stratego than Chess.
Is Stratego more complicated than chess for reals? I did not know that.

Also it would be fewer people not less people cause people are discrete.
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Old 05-31-2017, 09:45 AM   #29
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Re: Stratego anyone?

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Is Stratego more complicated than chess for reals? I did not know that.

Also it would be fewer people not less people cause people are discrete.
The internet says so ldo must be true.
But aside that, more pieces per side, so more combinations of possible positions / outcomes.
And information isn't perfect so even when the number of pieces drops to the same as in Chess, just the possible positions would be far greater than in chess, let alone the possible future positions.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:45 AM   #30
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Re: Stratego anyone?

Well, Stratego is imperfect information, so much harder to find a decent strategy than in perfect information games like Chess.
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:36 AM   #31
leavesofliberty
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Re: Stratego anyone?

Yes, more combinations in Stratego, I believe, because of the imperfect information, and more pieces, but the movement is far more restricted. It'd be an interesting math problem to count the number of arrangements possible for each side's starting position.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:36 AM   #32
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Re: Stratego anyone?

Barely interesting.

In the standard variant with 8 scouts, 6 bombs, 5 miners, 4 Captains, lieutenants and sergeants, 3 Majors, 2 colonels the amount of setups is 40!/(8! * 6! * 5! * 4! * 4! * 4! * 3! * 2!) = 1.4E33
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:09 AM   #33
leavesofliberty
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Re: Stratego anyone?

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Originally Posted by Gabethebabe View Post
Barely interesting.

In the standard variant with 8 scouts, 6 bombs, 5 miners, 4 Captains, lieutenants and sergeants, 3 Majors, 2 colonels the amount of setups is 40!/(8! * 6! * 5! * 4! * 4! * 4! * 3! * 2!) = 1.4E33
Right, well a decent AI would likely place pieces in descending ranks into heirarchies, and compute "board control" or something like that. The game becomes much less complicated learning-wise as the pieces come off and there are lots of positions where an extra major should be sufficient, because you trade-off controlling the three "swim lanes" (left flank, right flank, center), and then the major controls the vital territory. An AI would also be able to draw when it's the end of the game, and the AI has a Scout left, and an unapproachable flag (bombed off with no enemy miners), and would be able to find draws in the game trees. I'd THINK that Stratego might be less complicated computer science wise than chess, but more complicated math wise than chess. Similarily Omaha 8/b might be more complicated math wise, but less complicated strategically, than Hold'em.

Thanks for doing the math btw, now I remember how to do those types of problems. Out of practice.
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:42 AM   #34
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Re: Stratego anyone?

Surely Stratego is much harder computer science wise than chess because of incomplete information and many more pieces, therefore many more combinations.
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:55 AM   #35
leavesofliberty
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Re: Stratego anyone?

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Surely Stratego is much harder computer science wise than chess because of incomplete information and many more pieces, therefore many more combinations.
But, think of Omaha 8/b for example, many more combinations, is it truly more complicated? You can find general rules, I think. I have not researched AI enough to know. I think it's entirely possible that you can take an advantage, squeeze off the choke points, capture the flag, and keep a draw in reserve, and have a powerful opponent without the complexity of chess. The other factor is that chess players are more advanced as there is a larger community, so it is comparing apples to oranges in that regard.

If you're talking about the perspective of solving the game, then Stratego is more complicated. Otherwise, I am not sure which one is more complicated. What I am saying is that a larger game tree is not necessarily a more complicated one.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:42 AM   #36
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Re: Stratego anyone?

Take for example the case of a standard Stratego draw.

It can be defined like this, "In this scenario, our army is outmatched, but our Flag is unapproachable, because our opponent has no Miner(s) left, and it is Bombed off. In our Army, we have at least one Scout left, and can move the Scout back and forth, and therefore cannot lose."

You do not need to do billions of calculations to solve that entire tree, and recognize it as a draw, even if you were programming an AI. This is perhaps the best use of an AI in Stratego. And, you have simplified billions, perhaps trillions of leaves in a game tree with this simple algorithm. This would be my starting point if I were to make a Stratego AI.

Then you expand it, recognize that you need to have the dominent army, and at least one Miner left to win the game.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say the game is far more balanced than chess percentage wise and the first move matters far less. It may be a provable draw (though not in my lifetime), but I think Stratego should be thought of a game of draws, and going for a win early on is usually a mistake. So, I play defensive Stratego now.

AI, I think it's possible to have a few algorithms for what good play looks like, and then construct the AI with a simplified game tree, like, "Have the suprior Army, control the lanes, look for double-threats, and trap the weaker pieces." And have a few sentences like that into stored algorithms, and it wouldn't be too bad.

Now, here's where it becomes interesting. With chess, to calculate a draw, you either need to consult a massive database with all games with 7 pieces each remaining which has been pre-solved (win,loss,draw for each position), and then try to reduce the millions of combinations to find the best outcomes using some programming to analyse position and material. Either it seems to me that chess seems far more complicated at this, or I simply do not understand the finer points of Stratego, which is possible, because there aren't all that many "finer points", because it is by far the less analyzed game.

td;dr

Stratego seems simpler if you do not think of it in terms of raw calculation, but algorithms to guide you to victory (or draws).
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