POG Politics Thread - Page 9

Zurvan · 09-14-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clowntable

a) If the US can fight unconstitutional wars and invade sovereign nations at will let's just say I'm not exactly happy that the US has nuclear weapons.
b) Remember I asked the Iraq invasion question in the context of Georgia. How are the same resons Zurvan named for the USA invading the Iraq not also relevant for Russia invading Georgia?
That's what the initial question was all about.

a) "Unconstitutional". Who's constitution? At least they've shown reluctance to fire nukes outside of full scale war, over a period of 60+ years, and haven't pledged destruction of any other societies/countries. Can't say the same for Iran et al.
b) Didn't the Georgians start it? I'm not really sure I see the connection? The US is mad at Russia because Georgia is a US ally.

clowntable · 09-14-2008, 02:54 PM

""" We the founding fathers hereby declare:
No constitution should ever apply to this country"""

;P

ackbleh · 09-14-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amplify

Oh come on ack, don't sweep these crucial practical implications under the rug.

Well, wait a second. I'm saying we'd not be better off with your proposed changes. I'd take the current constitution over that.

You could improve it further by taking the god-stuff out and strengthening the separation of church and state stuff -- getting god off our money and out of the pledge of allegiance, etc. And by making online gambling (and homosexuality, I suppose) explicitly legal, etc. In general I'd add a lot of crap directed towards the same ends as you're trying to achieve, ensuring personal liberties and getting the law to more closely resemble the enforcement of non-interference... on most issues.

But I wouldn't end taxation or social services.

clowntable · 09-14-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zurvan

a) "Unconstitutional". Who's constitution? At least they've shown reluctance to fire nukes outside of full scale war, over a period of 60+ years, and haven't pledged destruction of any other societies/countries. Can't say the same for Iran et al.
b) Didn't the Georgians start it? I'm not really sure I see the connection? The US is mad at Russia because Georgia is a US ally.

a) Their own of course. See Korean War et al.
b) The point is IMO it's pretty moot to discuss who "good nations" and "bad nations" are. I think everyone should be allowed to own nuclear weapons.

Zurvan · 09-14-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clowntable

a) Their own of course. See Korean War et al.
b) The point is IMO it's pretty moot to discuss who "good nations" and "bad nations" are. I think everyone should be allowed to own nuclear weapons.

a) Explain, because I have nfi what you're talking about
b) Armageddon's not that bad, I suppose. I don't see how you can be against taxation, but for governments owning weapons capable of killing all life on Earth.

metsandfinsfan · 09-14-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ackbleh

... and it wouldn't mention god at all. That much I can tell you.

interesting point. Most people think the declaration and constitution were written with freedom of religion in mind, but it was really freedom of religion for people who believe in Judeo-Christian ethics in mind.

I agree that religion probably shouldnt be involved in the govt, but most people think it should. In God We Trust on our money, students in 98% of public schools reciting the pledge of allegience every morning with the phrase Under God in it ... is this a separation of church and state?

ackbleh · 09-14-2008, 03:00 PM

I can't believe I forgot the legalization of pot. Not a smoker, but absurd we jail people for it.

clowntable · 09-14-2008, 03:02 PM

ack it's pretty interesting that you want to explicitly legalize a lot of stuff that would automatically be legal if "let people mind their own business" was the top priority, don't you think?

amplify · 09-14-2008, 03:02 PM

Ack, I can work with all that stuff. I could happily vote for a candidate like Ron Paul who is dedicated to reducing the size of government while maintaining the infrastructure. I could probably live with just about any candidate the Libertarian Party nominated except for Bob ****ing Barr. I know my stuff is radical, but I think it's correct. In the mean time, I am happy to work with people to make things better given what we have. Decriminalization of drugs, reducing our military presence in other countries, and repealing crap like the Patriot act would be good starts.

metsandfinsfan · 09-14-2008, 03:03 PM

lol i see we crossposted

im not really sure how taking in god we trust off our money or banning the pledge of allegience would really help us as a country, but i do recongnize the hypocracy of it and us calling ourselves a free country with freedom of religion and a separation of church and state.

it's not a big deal to me either way.

clowntable · 09-14-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zurvan

a) Explain, because I have nfi what you're talking about
b) Armageddon's not that bad, I suppose. I don't see how you can be against taxation, but for governments owning weapons capable of killing all life on Earth.

a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
b) I'm not "for governments owning weapons". I'm against restricting the ownership of weapons.

Zurvan · 09-14-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clowntable

ack it's pretty interesting that you want to explicitly legalize a lot of stuff that would automatically be legal if "let people mind their own business" was the top priority, don't you think?

I think ack & I can agree that letting people mind their own business is probably less important than maintaining the infrastructure that government provides, without the more invasive nanny state laws.

You debate like a politician. Not a compliment.

ackbleh · 09-14-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan

interesting point. Most people think the declaration and constitution were written with freedom of religion in mind, but it was really freedom of religion for people who believe in Judeo-Christian ethics in mind.

I agree that religion probably shouldnt be involved in the govt, but most people think it should. In God We Trust on our money, students in 98% of public schools reciting the pledge of allegience every morning with the phrase Under God in it ... is this a separation of church and state?

As someone who refused to recite the pledge, I bet most people would be surprised at how much a kid can be ostracized for that. Especially in Georgia.

No, it's not a separation of church and state. Which is too bad and I wish it was, but all things considered, I feel lucky to be an American. On the worldwide scale of religious freedom, we're doing well.

Just to be clear, I'd love to see this changed for the better, I'm just aware it could be a lot worse.

Zurvan · 09-14-2008, 03:07 PM

I know what the Korean war is. But I don't see anything about wars being against the US constitution.

clowntable · 09-14-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

As someone who refused to recite the pledge, I bet most people would be surprised at how much a kid can be ostracized for that

Yeah I got threatened for that when I was in the US. First with getting kicked out of school, then with sitting in a classroom for hours (I guess that's some sort of jail sentence) then they gave up. I run good.