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Old 09-15-2008, 03:28 AM   #176
kokiri
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by clowntable View Post
kokiri, maybe the chapter on "Human Rights as Property Rights" might interest you (and hopefully make you want to read the rest :P):
http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fifteen.asp
I started reading one of the things you linked to the other day, actually. This praexocology stuff seems like nonsense, tbh
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:33 AM   #177
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Re: POG Politics Thread

But you don't deny that debt and the ensuing interest isn't good for the banks, correct?

And I've missed some posts. Arguing that Bush has been good for the nat'l debt is just absurd.

I don't think your first point is valid but I'll have to let somebody like Clown or Amp deal with it.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:41 AM   #178
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Re: POG Politics Thread

ultimately kokiri its regardless of whether your first point is valid (I'm pretty sure it isn't but im not prepared to argue why)

its nuts to argue that people aren't getting rich off the war
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:45 AM   #179
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by DustinG View Post
But you don't deny that debt and the ensuing interest isn't good for the banks, correct?
And I've missed some posts. Arguing that Bush has been good for the nat'l debt is just absurd.
I think you missed a negative somewhere in the first sentence.

I'm not saying bush was good for the national debt. I'm asking why a bigger national debt is good for the banks.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:45 AM   #180
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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More government borrowing = less available funds for the private sector, which is good for no one really. Moreover, at some point more US borrowing = US government no longer a AAA borrower, which is also pretty bad news.

It does feed into the question of bush's presidency, since both mets and mark cited tax burden as a key pro-bush plank. More borrowing is simply delayed taxation, and i think it's hard to argue that bush has really been a small government conservative.
OK, OK,

I've got a lot of issues with taxation but I also realize that the government does need funding.

The think that just drives me crazy is the government's unstoppable need to transfer wealth from people that work their ass off so they can bring in a good wage to groups of people that look at the government with their hand out.

Democrats (i.e. Obama) are the main drivers. But I will admit that Republicans aren't all that innocent.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:46 AM   #181
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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ultimately kokiri its regardless of whether your first point is valid (I'm pretty sure it isn't but im not prepared to argue why)

its nuts to argue that people aren't getting rich off the war
It's the haliburtons that are making out well from the war, not the Lehmans
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:48 AM   #182
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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OK, OK,

I've got a lot of issues with taxation but I also realize that the government does need funding.

The think that just drives me crazy is the government's unstoppable need to transfer wealth from people that work their ass off so they can bring in a good wage to groups of people that look at the government with their hand out.

Democrats (i.e. Obama) are the main drivers. But I will admit that Republicans aren't all that innocent.
TBH, i'd rather that the government game my cash to someone poor than they used it to shoot at iraqis.
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:11 AM   #183
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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TBH, i'd rather that the government game my cash to someone poor than they used it to shoot at iraqis.
And I really think the Iraq war wasn't a bad move. Obviously the jury is still out and far far from making a decision but the payoff's of a pro-USA democratic nation in the Middle East are HUGE.

BTW, just to complete the discussion circle, I also can fully understand Russa's move into Georgia. They're a freaking border country of Russia and want entrance into NATO?!?! Could you imagine Russia cozying up to Mexico and then Russa starts installing anti-missles and radar systems on Mexican soil? I don't think the US would be too pleased.
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:12 AM   #184
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Re: POG Politics Thread

MDoranD wins the thread
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:45 AM   #185
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Somebody make a case for Obama.

Somebody else make a case for McCain.

Thanks.
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:48 AM   #186
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Yeah I got threatened for that when I was in the US. First with getting kicked out of school, then with sitting in a classroom for hours (I guess that's some sort of jail sentence) then they gave up. I run good.

So let me get this striaght (and forgive me if I have your backstory wrong clown):

Your principal/teachers were upset and tried to punish a GERMAN citizen because he would not pledge allegiance to the UNITED STATES? That is straight out of the Twilight Zone stuff to me.

I would be willing to bet that your pricipal/teachers are the types of people who would have gotten physically violent if they were in Germany and someone tried to make them pledge allegiance to Germany.
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Old 09-15-2008, 10:01 AM   #187
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by kyro View Post
Somebody make a case for Obama.

Somebody else make a case for McCain.

Thanks.
Can I do both?

Obama:
Has actually gotten the attention of people who normally don't give a **** about politics. If he wins, and does what he said (and it's not an absolute disaster, ldo), could radically improve politics as a whole.

McCain:
He appears to be well respected, even by lefty media types, and doesn't appear to suffer bull****. Probably will do what he says, and probably won't do things he doesn't believe in. All this is based on things I've heard about him, even from people who would traditionally bash a Republican presidential candidate.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:19 AM   #188
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by kyro View Post
Somebody make a case for Obama.

Somebody else make a case for McCain.

Thanks.
wrong thread?

in this thread I thought we were discussing why both were just the tools of the elites


I am glad to see that there are some real partisans here though like Mark K (who sadly does not live near where I am right now )

Mark- Even if we suppose that Iraq now is democratic and "free"- which would be a gigantic stretch, do you think its worth the cost of lives and suffering thats taken place?
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:23 AM   #189
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by Mark_K View Post
And I really think the Iraq war wasn't a bad move. Obviously the jury is still out and far far from making a decision but the payoff's of a pro-USA democratic nation in the Middle East are HUGE.
We already have one. Israel. What has it done for us?

Quote:
BTW, just to complete the discussion circle, I also can fully understand Russa's move into Georgia. They're a freaking border country of Russia and want entrance into NATO?!?! Could you imagine Russia cozying up to Mexico and then Russa starts installing anti-missles and radar systems on Mexican soil? I don't think the US would be too pleased.
You mean like we just did in Poland?

zomg I hope mdd doesn't get any more sand in his vagina from my msnbc copypasting
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:26 AM   #190
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Re: POG Politics Thread

I was a volunteer for the Obama campaign in the primary, I was even a delegate to my state's convention, but I haven't gotten off my duff yet in the general, I'm kind of burnt out. So I'm pretty partisan in that sense. I think the difficulty in constructing a case is just that in order to do it in less than a short book you really have to make some assumptions that are tailored towards finding a common starting ground with the intended audience. It's also a lot of work and I just don't have desire for it right now, which is probably part of the reason I haven't been doing volunteering lately.

Someone did mention Obama raising their taxes earlier. I will note that while it is definitely true that Obama's tax plans are more "redistributionist" at the top end (although he wouldn't like the term) than McCain's, it's also true that for the vast majority of Americans his plan cuts taxes, as calculated by the Brookings Institute (taxpolicycenter.org I believe). A lot of the redistribution comes simply from reversing the Bush tax cuts though.

Dustin, thanks for the Russia/Georgia link. I'm sorry I missed it the first time, this thread is moving fast.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:27 AM   #191
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by kokiri View Post
I think you missed a negative somewhere in the first sentence.

I'm not saying bush was good for the national debt. I'm asking why a bigger national debt is good for the banks.
Debt means interest so I think the answer should be obvious. Banks make their money off of interest.

The $64,000 dollar question is why is a debt thats never getting paid good for the banks?
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:31 AM   #192
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by DustinG View Post
Mark- Even if we suppose that Iraq now is democratic and "free"- which would be a gigantic stretch, do you think its worth the cost of lives and suffering thats taken place?
i think war is a necesary evil. It sucks we lost lives there, but that is true in any war. We lost lives in the American Revolution and Civil War as well, so i never really get that point
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:34 AM   #193
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Somebody else make a case for McCain.
Thanks.
Obama = Charasmatic Jimmy Carter

enough said imo
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:35 AM   #194
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Re: POG Politics Thread

"War is a necessary evil" may be true in general and yet not true of the war in question, that is the question. Is this war worth it? Not "Is any war worth it".
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:37 AM   #195
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Re: POG Community Thread

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the msm is entirely controlled?
I knew I didn't want to tread into this thread.

No, the MSM is not entirely controlled. Seriously. The problem is, the MSM as a whole is ridiculously stupid and will run with whatever it is fed, rather than doing real research and asking the really tough questions. Again, it's more a matter of being stupid (EDIT: And doing the easy thing instead of the hard thing) than being controlled.

Now, does the Government know how to use the media to its end? Absolutely. But that's not the same as outright controlling it.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:40 AM   #196
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Re: POG Politics Thread

I think all future posts I make in this thread will be George Carlin Youtube clips.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:42 AM   #197
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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"War is a necessary evil" may be true in general and yet not true of the war in question, that is the question. Is this war worth it? Not "Is any war worth it".
Regardless of whether is was or not, we did it. And we have an obligation there now. That is what pisses me off the most about people.
If we left Iraq now, the democracy would fail, iran would probably take over iraq, and all the lives we lost were in vain. At least the people are not under a dictator's rule right now. We caused that, and we have an obligation to help maintain that at least for a reasonable time. Actually, forever.

People may think we didnt belong in the war, but that as irrelevant as saying we shouldn't have lynched dustin when he claimed seer. We went to war, we made a change for those people, let's be proud of our soldiers and country instead of criticizing the people who put us there like monday morning quarterbacks. There are no do-overs. We went there, so support your damn country
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:42 AM   #198
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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QFT. When people ask which candidate I like, I can't even begin to answer that question. Haven't LIKED a candidate in a really, really long time. How could anyone like a candidate -- they're just regurgitating what opinion polls tell them to say, and trying to score points on their opponent.

Then people talk about how you should watch the debates and see where people stand, how that's the intelligent way to vote. How stupid! The best debaters pride themselves on being able to 'win' the debate with either side of an argument. I'm not interested in choosing the president who can persuade the best. The 'post-debate' coverage talks about who won the debate, and it's all about who messed up their statistics or who 'caught' the other candidate or who looked nervous or whatever. Pfft.

Maybe some day we'll be able to actually discuss the policies and which ones actually make logical sense and are endorsed by neutral, qualified professionals/experts in that field, instead of voting for the salesman who can sell the most snake oil.

The poor quality of most political conversations reflects the poor quality of the candidates and coverage.
This is so dead on.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:43 AM   #199
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Your principal/teachers were upset and tried to punish a GERMAN citizen because he would not pledge allegiance to the UNITED STATES? That is straight out of the Twilight Zone stuff to me.
This is correct. But I also got into trouble for wearing inapropriate shirts etc. etc. it was a little extreme imo. But then again there was a movement to rename the ports teams from Demons to Dolphins because the teamname wasn't Christian enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokiri View Post
I think you missed a negative somewhere in the first sentence.

I'm not saying bush was good for the national debt. I'm asking why a bigger national debt is good for the banks.
The people that profit from inflation are the ones that know about it first and can use that knowledge to their advantage before the new "true worth" of the money has trickled down the economic chain.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:44 AM   #200
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Somebody else make a case for McCain.
Palin is hot!!
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