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Old 09-14-2008, 03:48 PM   #151
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Re: POG Politics Thread

I'm asking what US laws the US is breaking by starting the wars.

As for who should own nukes... if somebody has to have them (nobody does, now), then it might as well be the US... because they've had them for 60+ years, have had ample opportunity to break them out, and never have. Actions speak louder than words.

I mean, I don't see how you can look at Iran, who've pledged the destruction of Israel, and the US, and say "Ya, they're the same", and if it's OK for the US to have nukes, it's OK for Iran, because clearly Iran will show the same restraint in their use as the US has. For all its faults, the US hasn't declared that their political goal is the destruction of another society (not since the 80s, anyway), and there is internal consequence to the US using nuclear weapons that doesn't apply in Iran.
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:48 PM   #152
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
The words "under God" were added to the Pledge on 14 June 1954 when then U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed a bill into law. At the time, Eisenhower stated that "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."[7]
The matter of the Pledge's constitutionality simmered for decades below the public eye. In 1992, the Chicago-based Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals decided the first challenge to the constitutionality of the words "under God," ruling in Sherman v. Community Consolidated School District 21 that the use of the words "under God" in the Pledge did not violate the Establishment Clause. On June 26, 2002, in a case (Newdow v. United States Congress) brought by an atheist father objecting to the Pledge being taught in his daughter's school, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled the addition of under God an unconstitutional endorsement of monotheism.
Some conservative Christians and others, heirs to a tradition long believing itself persecuted by secularism in government, considered it an attack on faith in God or the role of religion generally in the public square. Some moderates and liberals felt that pursuing the matter was stirring up trouble, but many supported the ruling, especially atheists, secularists, and civil libertarians, most of them on the grounds that including the phrase "under God" in the Pledge violated the separation of church and state.
Shortly after the ruling's release, Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, author of the opinion in the 2-1 ruling, signed an order staying its enforcement until the full Ninth Circuit court could decide whether to hear an appeal.
The day after the ruling, the Senate voted in favor of the Pledge as it stood .[8]. The House followed suit, accepting a similar resolution.[9] The Senate vote was 99-0 (Senator Jesse Helms could not attend, but had been expected to vote "yes"); the House 416-3 with 11 abstaining. President George W. Bush and many other politicians spoke out in favor of the existing Pledge.
The stay on the ruling was lifted on February 28, 2003 when the full Ninth Circuit court of appeals decided not to take the case, letting the ruling stand. A second stay was granted, however, to give the school district time to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. If it had held, the court's ruling would have affected more than 9.6 million students in Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington and Guam.
In the months following the court's decision, attorneys general from all 50 states filed papers asking the Supreme Court of the United States to review the decision, 49 of which joined a legal brief sponsored by Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson and Idaho Attorney General Lawrence Wasden. California filed a separate brief, also urging the Supreme Court to hear the case.
On January 12, 2004, the Supreme Court agreed to hear the appeal on March 24 of the same year. Justice Antonin Scalia recused himself from the case after he had criticized the Ninth Circuit judgment in the Newdow case.[10][11][12] On June 14, 2004, the Supreme Court rejected Newdow's claim by an 8-0 vote, stating that as a non-custodial parent, he did not have standing to act as his daughter's legal representative. The Court did not reach the constitutionality of the pledge, but several of the Justices' opinions indicated that they would uphold the constitutionality of the Pledge (Rehnquist's concurring opinion in 542 U.S. 1, 31).[citation needed]
In August 2005, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit held 3-0 in Myers v. Loudoun County Public Schools that teacher-led recitations of the Pledge did not violate the Establishment Clause. The Plaintiff in that case, Edward Myers, decided not to appeal the case to the Supreme Court.
wow, some of this is pretty unbelievable
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:51 PM   #153
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by clowntable View Post


I do think it is interesting because I do think that those are natural freedoms that don't need any extra document to be legal. Being homosexual, using drugs etc. do not require any extra laws. Human beings own themselves and can do with their body whatever the hell they please as long as they don't invade anyone else's selfownership.
But then again I'm just debating like a politician so whatever.
In the country I live in, with the morons who are currently getting elected (both parties), pretty much every individual right needs to be in the constitution to avoid being legislated away.

The same people who are electing these morons are the people who you and amplify trust to take care of each others' children and respect each others liberties. Not gonna happen. Wish it would, but it won't.
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:53 PM   #154
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Re: POG Politics Thread

ack

are you registered libertarian?

do you vote libertarian?
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:58 PM   #155
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Re: POG Politics Thread

I am not regtered with any party. I do usually vote 3rd party, more often libertarian than not.
In 2000 I made an exception to my 'no democrats or republicans' general policy and voted for Al Gore because I thought the short-term need to prevent W being president outweighed the long term need of trying to increase 3rd party viability.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:02 PM   #156
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Re: POG Politics Thread

I also might vote for our republican candidate for governor in Washington state, Dino Rossi, this year. The democrat in office, Gregoire, made online poker a felony during her last term.

how do you vote, mets?
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:09 PM   #157
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Re: POG Politics Thread

usually republican

i voted ron paul in the primary but didnt agree with his antiwar stance. But i do agree that govt in general has gotten too big, and i believe in most of the republican economic policies while wanting to preserve people's liberties

so i think im probably mostly a libertarian at heart but im reged republican and still usually vote republican
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:42 PM   #158
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Full disclosure: I voted for W twice. Sorry about that.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:44 PM   #159
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Re: POG Politics Thread

i followed the 2000 us race in quite a lot of detail, including the conventions and all, and i was sold on W being the better choice. I guess you never know, AG might have been worse.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:47 PM   #160
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Theory: If Bush is better spoken, or Bush is a democrat, he's not the considered the villain like he is now.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:50 PM   #161
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Re: POG Politics Thread

disagree. I don't think of bush as a villain, in the same way as i wouldn't think of an octopus as a villain if it crashed a car i tried to get it to drive. He was just not capable of doing the job. Many of the people around him, however, i do think are villains.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:51 PM   #162
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Cheney is almost out of a Bond film.
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:56 PM   #163
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Re: POG Politics Thread

i voted for W twice

and i still think he is better than gore or kerry wouldve been
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Old 09-14-2008, 04:56 PM   #164
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by amplify View Post
Full disclosure: I voted for W twice. Sorry about that.
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Old 09-14-2008, 05:27 PM   #165
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Re: POG Community Thread

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kokiri,

re chomsky:
i'd much rather talk about why I don't like amy goodman than why I don't like chomsky, since its a somewhat easier question

but i'll have to tackle that later

but before we do you agree that the msm is entirely controlled? if not there isn't any sense in discussing the left-media
I have no idea who this is, but i wiki'd, & if you'd like to tell me why you don't like her, grand.

I don't think that the media is controlled per se, but i do thing that there is a lot of effort going into controlling the discourse of international relations/politics, which is perhaps a more pretentious way of saying the same thing.

Lately i've been thinking a bit about human rights. I think they are a fascinating, and almost entirely illusory, concept.
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Old 09-14-2008, 05:34 PM   #166
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan View Post
i voted for W twice

and i still think he is better than gore or kerry wouldve been
I'm a registered Democrat (purely for historical reasons), but I lean more toward a mixed libertarian-republican view. I'm basically against the bible-thumping right wing side of the republican party and support individual responsiblity and rights.

I voted for W twice and would still vote him over Gore or Kerry.

As a taxpayer there is nothing that gets under my skin more than all the democratic supported entitlement programs. It's my money damn it!

And in my humble humble meaningless opinion McCain >>>>>> Obama

Any time a candidate looks me in the eye, points his finger, and says that he wants to raise my taxes, he isn't going to get my vote.
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:01 PM   #167
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Re: POG Politics Thread

kokiri, maybe the chapter on "Human Rights as Property Rights" might interest you (and hopefully make you want to read the rest :P):
http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fifteen.asp
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Old 09-14-2008, 09:38 PM   #168
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by clowntable View Post
Given that Socialism (and thus communism) have more or less been proven to not work and any anrachist ideas that I know of sound vastly superior to the current state of affairs (which btw is drifting more towards socialism every day) this is a bold statement.
I stand by it, but it's obviously just my opinion.

I started writing a whole lot about my dissatisfactions with strict deontologicalism and strict consequentialism, as well as the Republican, Democratic, and Libertarian parties, but chose to delete it. I find it hard not to engage in political debate without either saying things that unintentionally appear to be trolling (or intentionally trolling -- it's pretty fun). I POGgers too much to get involved when I know I'll either get heated myself, or start provoking other people, so I'll probably just observe from here on out.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:00 PM   #169
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Madtown is a wolf
lynch madtown
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:44 AM   #170
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Re: POG Politics Thread

San Francisco to decriminalize prostitution?
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:18 AM   #171
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Re: POG Politics Thread

[ ] puzzle
[ ] other game
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:30 AM   #172
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Re: POG Politics Thread

Quote:
[ ] puzzle
[ ] other game
[ ] you're forced to post in this thread or read it

Quote:
Originally Posted by amplify View Post
lol-wat prostitution is a crime?
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:41 AM   #173
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Re: POG Politics Thread

since this thread sucks really hard and its just 3 or 4 people trying to prove how smart they are by copy pasting MSNBC heres a real game

How long in days would it take the USA to take over certain countries. By take over, lets just go with a definition of conquering the countrys military. Other rules of this engagement is no nukes or WoMD allowed for either side, just military and their regular weaponry.

My initial thoughts to be expanded on as im sure you cant wait to hear are:

Mexico - 1.5 months
Canada - 3 months
Chile - 12 to 16 hours
Germany - 2 months
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:42 AM   #174
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan View Post
nope



There are plenty of other reasons, but bottom line is yes, that is why we got involved there. We overthrew the govt, hanged saddam, and now there is some sore of a democracy there. It's far from being perfect, but it'll take time.
Why do you think the US got involved in Iraq? Just to finish his Daddy's war? For Oil?

the daddy thing may have some merit to it ... but it's still to stop the injustices that were being done. That's why i think the US needs to stay there to make sure the democracy suceeds, or else the War was for nothing, like some many people think it was

if it was for oil, i'd like to know how. It's not like we took the oil, or the war has helped our oil prices or anything, so i fail to understand that rationale at all.

I just stared reading so perhaps this has been covered already

but I think a couple possible reasons for the war have been overlooked

1) the war is adding billions and billions in debt which is good for the banks

2) not taking the oil is better for the oil companies than taking the oil

2a) Saddam was pumping too much oil and gas prices were too low

2b) gas prices are no longer low
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:26 AM   #175
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Re: POG Politics Thread

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1) the war is adding billions and billions in debt which is good for the banks
More government borrowing = less available funds for the private sector, which is good for no one really. Moreover, at some point more US borrowing = US government no longer a AAA borrower, which is also pretty bad news.

It does feed into the question of bush's presidency, since both mets and mark cited tax burden as a key pro-bush plank. More borrowing is simply delayed taxation, and i think it's hard to argue that bush has really been a small government conservative.
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