POG Philosophy and Religion thread

[Supine]

Originally Posted by kcaw

your turn evolutionists, why don't you all post some stupid spaghetti-monster meme or something

I try to stay away from such. While fun, it seldom helps the debate.

[kcaw]

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/a-universe-from-nothing

Please everybody listen to these links

[kcaw]

it's an answer to Lawrence Krauss book, A Universe From Nothing

[kokiri]

AIUI, that book is moderately controversial in the physics world.

[kcaw]

Seriously, even if you are never going to believe , you should listen to this as it is at the vanguard of philosophical debate.

[kokiri]

Originally Posted by kcaw

the vanguard of philosophical debate.

words to make even the brave amongst us tremble.

[bsball8806]

Why are you arguing with someone whose ultimate argument is "because I believe it"

[bsball8806]

Originally Posted by kcaw

Understand I don't argue micro-evolution

lulz

[amplify]

Originally Posted by kokiri

AIUI, that book is moderately controversial in the physics world.

I haven't read it but what I read about it sounded like more Hitchens/Dawkins rational atheism than hard science.

[clowntable]

Originally Posted by DiggertheDog

I am interested in knowing the personal reasons for POGGers belief in God.

Lets just assume for the moment that it is reasonable to actually believe in God or that it is a reasonable possibility that God/s exist.

My question is: Why do you, specifically, believe in God?

I don't have a better explaination for the existance of the world nor do I know of one that is convincing.

so you assume god did it all, by magic?

Yes, dogma is a solid scientific answer to questions of universal validity.

Evolution is falsifiable.

The principle that all theories should be falsifiable or ignored as hogwash isn't falsifiable.

There is no debate in the scientific community about evolution. Not believing in evolution is, for all intents and purposes, the same as not believing in the heliocentric model. I'm curious why you think that is proven and evolution is not.

First of all evolution is not proven it is just sufficiently plausible and for a good scientiest there is merit to questioning every single theory so don't give me the scientific version of "might is right". And second of all many people who belive in god (including myself) don't debate that evolution is a good theory. It's the seeding of the evolutionary process that is in question.

Why are you arguing with someone whose ultimate argument is "because I believe it"

The process of arguing is fun.

[kokiri]

well i have a hazy memory of a blog post about a review of the book, so i'm pretty much an authority.

I seem to recall that it is accused of making the argument that the laws of physics are capable, not only of describing the physical world, but also how/why the said same laws came into being (and thus removing the need for god as creator). To which the seemingly reasonable objection is that this seems to be making a category error wrt the laws of physics.

I think there was also some disagreement about exactly what nothing is.

but like i say, i've not read it, nor do i really intend to atm.

[clowntable]

The laws of physics weren't even capable of describing most of the universe the last time I checked.

[amplify]

There is no causal relationship between Consciousness and the universe.
-Ramesh Balsekar

I do not agree with "scientific" rational physicalist philosophies such as reductive materialism, which asserts that consciousness is merely & entirely a product of brain activity.

It seems perfectly obvious that conscious awareness is a fundamental feature of reality, not at all something which evolved randomly out of vertebrate physiology.

Vertebrate physiology evolved by natural selection out of primordial biosoup, but consciousness was already there.

Matter is a condition for the manifestation of consciousness, and consciousness is a condition for any experience of matter. Posing the issue as a choice between whether the world “really exists” out there or is “merely created by the mind” is just too clumsy. It is the interaction of the two that yields the world as we know it, a world consisting of moments of knowing.
-Andrew Olendzki

[Supine]

First of all evolution is not proven it is just sufficiently plausible and for a good scientiest there is merit to questioning every single theory so don't give me the scientific version of "might is right".

I tend to disagree with this to avoid situations where people misunderstand the concept of what a scientific theory is. Perhaps a better phrasing would be "evolution is a 99.9 % scientific consensus, and no competing scientifc theories exist".

And second of all many people who belive in god (including myself) don't debate that evolution is a good theory. It's the seeding of the evolutionary process that is in question.

Thats why I was a bit surprised kcaw didn't believe in evolution. Fwiw I don't think evolution says anything bout the likelihood of a supernatural creator. I don't think christians should have a problem with evolution as long as they're not reading the bible literally.

[kokiri]

Originally Posted by amplify

There is no causal relationship between Consciousness and the universe.
-Ramesh Balsekar

I do not agree with "scientific" rational physicalist philosophies such as reductive materialism, which asserts that consciousness is merely & entirely a product of brain activity.

It seems perfectly obvious that conscious awareness is a fundamental feature of reality, not at all something which evolved randomly out of vertebrate physiology.

Vertebrate physiology evolved by natural selection out of primordial biosoup, but consciousness was already there.

Matter is a condition for the manifestation of consciousness, and consciousness is a condition for any experience of matter. Posing the issue as a choice between whether the world “really exists” out there or is “merely created by the mind” is just too clumsy. It is the interaction of the two that yields the world as we know it, a world consisting of moments of knowing.
-Andrew Olendzki

Me likey.