POG Philosophy and Religion thread

[Tao1]

Et voila, it is here on request of some parts of the community that prefers we dont befoul their thread. Please read the RGT welcome post here to get a sense of what goes and what doesnt. Have fun!

[Zurvan]

A+ thread idea

[Tao1]

Dear Buddhists and/or Christians,

In concerning yourself only with suffering, or the avoidance thereof, you deny the opportunity for greatness, both in yourselves and in your surroundings. The glorification of suffering in Christianity is on par with the glorification of the absence of suffering in Buddhism. Both lack an appreciation for superpersonal purpose, for living and for life itself, but most of all, both lack an appreciation for the future and for future entities.

With kind regards,

Tao

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

the idea of buddhism is to not glorify anything

but thinking of the future definitely means thinking of the self-- having your thoughts focused on your own ego instead of the present moment, which causes you to not be living your life to fullest




not that i have any room to talk

Originally Posted by Tao1

In this it sets as the highest purpose, aka glorifies (to stick with a term that should be congenial to Christianity aswell), not thinking, not doing, not acting, not not not. It glorifies the absence of things and above all the absence of personal suffering.

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

no. it doesn't.

any buddhist worth anything would say that as soon as you glorify anything (even the Buddha himself) then you are making an error

Originally Posted by Tao1

As in all things, I may well be mistaken, but tell me this.

What is the goal of the buddhist?

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

thinking about things in terms of goals is immediately making a mistake for a Buddhist

If you have a goal then you are setting one thing above others. You're also investing emotional energy into that goal. You might even say the goal is 'glorified'-- the more normal would just be attachment. I say glorified because I don't want you to accuse Buddhism of glorifying non-attachment-- which would be an oxymoron

Non-Attachment and Non-glorification are effectively the same thing.

The goal of buddhism is non-glorification. But its best not to think of it as a goal.

[Tao1]

Originally Posted by Zurvan

A+ thread idea

[wahoopride]

i would say what is the game here
but i guess there are lots of puzzles so it works

[Tom1975]

How long before we recreate every 2+2 forum as a thread in POG?

[Zurvan]

POGgers > non-POGgers

ergo

POG threads > other forums

[chuckleslovakian]

I believe in lynching Durron

[well named]

We could do that today.

Tao: I would argue that saying "Christianity glorifies suffering" is at best a drastically oversimplified understanding but the problem is there's quite a bit of variation in how different people who identify themselves as christians really think about something like this.

But at the very least, the point isn't suffering, it's selflessness, and selflessness is the most obvious when it involves suffering, after all, since it's completely typical for people to do good things for others when they get something out of it.

[Luckbox Inc]

But at the very least, the point isn't suffering, it's selflessness, and selflessness is the most obvious when it involves suffering, after all, since it's completely typical for people to do good things for others when they get something out of it.

This is of course the point of Buddhism as well

And ultimately all religion. Because too much self cuts one off from greater things.

[amplify]

I would say the defining factors in Judeo-Christianity are a fundamental dualism and the concept of sin.

The dualism is presented immediately in genesis 3:5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (I use the NASB unless I'm looking for poetry, in which case the KJV is unbeatable)

Knowing good and evil is the state in which man falls from his ideal, is cast out from the garden, and knows sin. This is confusing for many as they cannot fathom why discernment of good and evil is sinful. We spend all our lives trying to discern good from evil. Consider the first verses of the Hsin Hsin Ming:

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.

Make the smallest distinction, however
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.

It's the same thing. From the Tao Te Ching:

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Tao1 is trying to get at Nietzsche's point about both Buddhism and Christianity being decadent religions because they both deny the world instead of affirming it. Being neither a Buddhist nor a Christian I don't have a dog in this fight, and my worldview is strongly informed by both traditions. But it's more informed by Advaita and nondual philosophy in general which causes me to interpret the teachings completely differently from a dualist.

Treating everything as a dream liberates. - Nisargadatta

[well named]

I don't think any christians think discernment of good and evil is sin.

it's hard to discuss some of these things because obviously I have my own ideas about what things mean or how they should be interpreted but I don't want to rely on appeals to authority in a forum discussion with people that have completely different fundamental assumptions, so instead I'm just pointing out that if your interpretation of that verse is "correct" in the sense that it represents "true" judao-christianity than I'm pretty sure there are no actual judao-christians because none of the people that call themselves that actually think that way.

They think the sin/fall comes in from being separated from God (or from being disobedient), not just from being able to distinguish good and evil.

note: replace "none" with "very few" if you want to be exact. I dunno but I guess it's likely somewhere you can find at least someone who sees it that way.

[amplify]

Originally Posted by well named

I don't think any christians think discernment of good and evil is sin.

Of course they don't.

The fruit on the tree story in Genesis presents man falling into dualism away from the Unity of God. The Fall is the condition under which sin becomes possible.

[biggerboat]

Originally Posted by chuckleslovakian

I believe in lynching Durron

[Luckbox Inc]

"early man walked away as modern man took control
their minds weren't all the same, to conquer was their goal
so he built his great empire and he slaughtered his own kind
he died a confused man killed himself with his own mind "