Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > Sports and Games > Puzzles and Other Games

Notices

Puzzles and Other Games Discussions about Puzzles and other non-gambling games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2012, 04:13 PM   #121
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kokiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: without squirrel
Posts: 31,633
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by amplify View Post
ironically (?) go would be a much better illustration of the kind of man vs machine metaphor since computers still can't play it to the level of humans.
this is barely true now, and not likely to be true for much longer, i don't think.

Pretty sure they can play it at the level of me already It happened quicker, but not much quicker, than i expected.
kokiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:21 PM   #122
Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing
 
amplify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: elenctic aporia
Posts: 66,057
What level are you? WIki says the current best computer on KGS is 6th Dan.
amplify is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:25 PM   #123
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kokiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: without squirrel
Posts: 31,633
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by amplify View Post
What level are you? WIki says the current best computer on KGS is 6th Dan.
ok, so they're really bloody good.

The highest i've been ranked was 1 dan on KGS, and really 1 kyu (1 rank lower) was probably more accurate. I've played probably 20 games in the last 3 years, so i'm probably awful atm. Picking it up again seriously is on the to do list, after learn to make half decent pottery and before write the next great american novel.

6 dan on kgs is like really really good amateur i think. Like really really good.
kokiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:31 PM   #124
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kokiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: without squirrel
Posts: 31,633
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

looking at the web page it looks like it's only on limited time games - 15 sec per move - that they're that good. I think that a few stones weaker is probably more accurate for a general overall strength. But still better than me.

What made them get good quickly recently - monte carlo - is quite an interesting subject.
kokiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:37 PM   #125
Eternal Unknowable Mesmerizing
 
amplify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: elenctic aporia
Posts: 66,057
Ok so really good amateur, but not to the level of any professional. What would that correlate to in a chess rating? Like 2200?
amplify is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:39 PM   #126
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kokiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: without squirrel
Posts: 31,633
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

i have no idea.
kokiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:42 PM   #127
Gifmeister

 
||.||.||'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ♥☮☺°
Posts: 6,276
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

||.||.|| is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:43 PM   #128
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Mark_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Collecting Bitcoins on SWC!
Posts: 11,791
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokiri View Post
What made them get good quickly recently - monte carlo - is quite an interesting subject.
Are there any good links describing this?
Mark_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 04:55 PM   #129
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kokiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: without squirrel
Posts: 31,633
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_K View Post
Are there any good links describing this?
you could try here:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?UCT
and elsewhere on that wiki, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compute...-Carlo_methods

Basically, there are two major problems with computer go:
1) the branching factor is huge - typically 200 possible moves at any given time
2) there's no easy way to undertake position evaluation midgame

1) is serious, but the way to solve it is a combination of filtering out crap and improving speed, much like chess.

2) is less obvious, but when a computer looks 5, 6, 7, whatever moves ahead, it has to decide how good a given resulting position is in order to compare alternatives. In chess, the obvious way to do it is comparing pieces. There are probably other things that come into play in the good bots, but basically you can rule out all alternatives where you lose a piece. Position evaluation in the mid game of Go is much harder and much more fuzzy.

So the way that they solved it is monte carlo simulation. Basically the bot simulates 5 moves or w/e in the future, and then to evaluate how good a position results, it plays out the rest of the game a large number of times, with both sides playing at total random. So you get a stat like white won 544, black won 456, which gives it an estimate of how good a position is, and the bot can then track back to find a best move using standard minimax. It sounds nuts, but has worked insanely well. Go bots were nowhere 10 years ago, maybe even 5, and now are really very good.
kokiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 05:10 PM   #130
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Mark_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Collecting Bitcoins on SWC!
Posts: 11,791
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Thanks kokiri!

Monte-Carlo type algorithms are used in my profession to create efficient routing solutions for the design of computer chips. So your use of it perked up my ears.

I'll check out the links.
Mark_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 05:15 PM   #131
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
kokiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: without squirrel
Posts: 31,633
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

i heard of them first from in the field of financial derivatives. They're used a lot there.
kokiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 10:12 PM   #132
FPS Allstar
 
PyramidScheme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Triple-A: Where Ike Davis Belongs
Posts: 15,469
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman View Post
Hmmm, well it seems I'm likely less than a year younger than you. So didn't you grow up on algebraic notation like I did? Since it's what I used for all my games live and online and it was in the magazines, that's the notation I can most naturally use to visualize a chess game in my mind. Descriptive notation seems foreign to me and takes effort to convert to moving pieces. I figured anyone my age would be the same, but I guess not.

Also, my "15 years" may have been off. I'm not entirely sure how old someone would have to be to have done enough of their chess learning with descriptive notation in order for it to come more naturally to them than algebraic.

I don't really care about this, I'm just curious.

I grew up on algebraic. I score my own games in algebraic. Probably do follow the EARLY moves better in my head with descriptive. However as the game goes on, descriptive well DESCRIBES the action better and has a more symmetrical feel. P-QR7 to me means the pawn is advancing to the queens rook 7th rank, so if White has on the other end P-KR7 I believe it's easier to envision the pawn race better then a7 and h7, where I still have to 'think' about where the a and h files even are.

If I'm reading a chess book and I have no board... I'd prefer it descriptive, writing it myself its easier to use algebraic. I guess it's just a matter of taste, in any case I'm providing both forms
PyramidScheme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 10:29 PM   #133
FPS Allstar
 
PyramidScheme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Triple-A: Where Ike Davis Belongs
Posts: 15,469
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabethebabe View Post
This position is known and occurred in the game Timman-Tal in 1986. I wonder if white finds the move that Timman played here.

lol I actually bought this and tried to find the 'game'
PyramidScheme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 10:33 PM   #134
FPS Allstar
 
PyramidScheme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Triple-A: Where Ike Davis Belongs
Posts: 15,469
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Move 5: White Plays P-B4
Move ...5: Black has 12 pieces (9 players) with legal moves



Full Game:
1.--P-K4----P-QB3
2.--P-KB4---N-B3
3.--P-K5----N-Q4
4.--P-KN3---N-R3
5.--P-B4


PGN: 1. e4 c6 2. f4 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. g3 Na6 5. c4


Fritz's Remaining:
White: 3
Black: 3
PyramidScheme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 11:07 PM   #135
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Sun Tzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: the depths of despair
Posts: 51,868
Re: Human Chess Game Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PyramidScheme View Post
Haha, it's happening less now as I slowly am approaching that age everyone seems to think I am.
I've been an old man ever since I was a little kid

eventually I'll be a real old man and it won't be as weird
Sun Tzu is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive