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| Puzzles and Other Games Discussions about Puzzles and other non-gambling games |
03-04-2008, 02:16 AM
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#121
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LYNCH DURRON597
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saving Sinners
Posts: 25,495
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Re: Bridge
Alright maybe I am being paranoid, but I can't get this hand out of my mind from earlier tonight
I am in 4th seat and the bidding is passed to me.
I open 1D.
LHO doubles.
Partner bids 1H
RHO puts down the pass card, then starts to reach for it back and mutters "Oh well I already played it"
I pass
LHO doubles again
WTF???
Does anyone pass, then double twice unless they know their partner actually had a bid they wanted to make? Needless to say they ended up in 2S and top board.
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03-04-2008, 03:34 AM
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#122
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reading your numbers
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 2,311
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrmidon7328
Ok, that's fair. I'm guessing that he still bids 3  over 3  , which shows at least 5-5 (right?). So, where do we go from here?
I know we have a lot of HCP, but I just can't picture a game anywhere, except a very shaky NT contract without much transportation (coupled with a generous lead).
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If you bid 3C (4th suit forcing) you have in essence forced game. So now it only matters, after 3D, what game we're going to go to. What do we know:
(1) Partner doesn't have a club stopper (Qxx) so we have no good club fit.
(2) He doesn't have 3 spades, but might still have 2, or 1.
(3) He probably has 5 diamonds, but could be stuck for a bid with something like xx/AQJxx/AKxx/xx, where you can still bid 3D as cheapest bid available.
Basically I see only 2 realistic options over 3D: 4S and 3NT. If partner has the red aces, I want to be in 4S, otherwise I'd rather take my chances in 3NT.
So I'll apply Hamman's Rule: if there are several alternatives to bid, and one of those alternatives is 3NT, then bid 3NT.
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03-04-2008, 03:40 AM
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#123
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reading your numbers
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands
Posts: 2,311
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckleslovakian
Alright maybe I am being paranoid, but I can't get this hand out of my mind from earlier tonight
I am in 4th seat and the bidding is passed to me.
I open 1D.
LHO doubles.
Partner bids 1H
RHO puts down the pass card, then starts to reach for it back and mutters "Oh well I already played it"
I pass
LHO doubles again
WTF???
Does anyone pass, then double twice unless they know their partner actually had a bid they wanted to make? Needless to say they ended up in 2S and top board.
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I am not just a bridge player, but also an official bridge director.
The bridge rules in this area are complex: partners are not allowed to make use on Unauthorized Information (UI) given to them by their partner.
Note that it's not illegal to give that UI, since that's inevitable: if you think for a long time and then bid something, partner knows you have some special kind of problem, and this limits your hand range, yet that is UI to partner.
In the case you mention, LHO has UI that RHO was very close to bidding somethin rather than passing. He is not allowed to use that information. In practice that means he can bid what he wants, but the opponents can ask the director to evaluate, after the hand, whether the 2nd dbl might be influenced by the UI. In that case the director will assign a score to the hand. In this case the assigned score would be 1H for some number of tricks.
Whether this is actually the case here can;t be judged without seeing the hands, particularly that of LHO. If he has an 18 HCP hand or so, he has every right to double again, since passing is out of the question. If he has 13-15 HCP, the director would not allow the 2nd double.
EDIT: Oh wait, I see he had already passed once before. Then it's a virtual certainty a director would never allow the bid. Your opponent would actually probably receive some extra penalty for blatant use of UI. We don't call it cheating because many, many bridge players do this, and not at all on purpose, but it is still not allowed.
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03-04-2008, 03:44 AM
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#124
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LYNCH DURRON597
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saving Sinners
Posts: 25,495
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabadam
Whether this is actually the case here can;t be judged without seeing the hands, particularly that of LHO. If he has an 18 HCP hand or so, he has every right to double again, since passing is out of the question. If he has 13-15 HCP, the director would not allow the 2nd double.
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LHO has 11 HCP, thats why they passed the first time. Didn't think to call them on it until I got home. Just making sure I should of.
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03-04-2008, 02:29 PM
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#125
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Redoubling with gusto
Posts: 10,691
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckleslovakian
Alright maybe I am being paranoid, but I can't get this hand out of my mind from earlier tonight
I am in 4th seat and the bidding is passed to me.
I open 1D.
LHO doubles.
Partner bids 1H
RHO puts down the pass card, then starts to reach for it back and mutters "Oh well I already played it"
I pass
LHO doubles again
WTF???
Does anyone pass, then double twice unless they know their partner actually had a bid they wanted to make? Needless to say they ended up in 2S and top board.
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Insta-call (the director) after LHO X's again. That is clearly UI being passed. LHO is allowed to X after the UI, but his hand better damn well warrant it. And if you feel damaged by the UI, you should again call the director after the board, and you should speak to him again while he is compiling scores.
Edit: And I can't think of many passed hands that warrant it! People are too nice at the bridge table. Director calls need to be made more often for these 'casual' slip-ups.
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03-04-2008, 03:09 PM
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#126
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HoldEmKillah
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Working. At a job. Really.
Posts: 21,663
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Re: Bridge
Here's a response from my father who is an avid bridge player.
"Depends on the hand of LHO. If he has a big distributional hand
(obviously the black suits) then it seems reasonable to me. Your
friend's bidding shows weakness for his team and the other team has a
right to take this into account in their bidding. I don't think the LHO
necessarily took undue advantage of his partner's mildly unethical
statement. Let it go."
Just to give another perspective from fabadam's. Maybe we don't need to be so quick to judge just because he is an initially passed hand.
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03-04-2008, 03:19 PM
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#127
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Redoubling with gusto
Posts: 10,691
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyman
I bid 4  over 3  . He knows (now) that you, too, are at least 5-5, probably 6-5 (or you could show delayed support for one of his suits). He'll pick your game, now.
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Upon further review, and discussion with someone way better than I, I'm inclined to bid 3  here over 3  to show the 6th. 3  should be natural and game forcing. P should be able, now, to better choose whether 3N is the right spot (or, he might even have spade support).
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03-04-2008, 03:26 PM
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#128
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Redoubling with gusto
Posts: 10,691
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWorstPlayer
Here's a response from my father who is an avid bridge player.
"Depends on the hand of LHO. If he has a big distributional hand
(obviously the black suits) then it seems reasonable to me. Your
friend's bidding shows weakness for his team and the other team has a
right to take this into account in their bidding. I don't think the LHO
necessarily took undue advantage of his partner's mildly unethical
statement. Let it go."
Just to give another perspective from fabadam's. Maybe we don't need to be so quick to judge just because he is an initially passed hand.
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True, LHO did not *necessarily* violate any rules. But, this is why you call the director. You alert him to any irregularity (e.g. RHO's statement), and this way if it later turns out that LHO *did* take advantage of UI, your score is protected. If not, no worries.
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03-04-2008, 03:54 PM
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#129
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HoldEmKillah
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Working. At a job. Really.
Posts: 21,663
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Re: Bridge
Oh, I agree with that. I was more picking up on "Then it's a virtual certainty a director would never allow the bid. Your opponent would actually probably receive some extra penalty for blatant use of UI" from fabadam. While I understand where he's coming from, I think generally people do not try to cheat and we might be a bit slower to come to judgment.
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03-04-2008, 08:41 PM
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#130
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,580
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Re: Bridge
v/v, imps, pickup p
 AQ6542
 KJ5
 K94
 7
LHO opens 1  , P overcalls 2  (!), RHO bids 3  , I bid 4  . LHO bids 5  and it's passed around to me. ?
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03-04-2008, 08:43 PM
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#131
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Retired from WW
Posts: 20,741
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Re: Bridge
5 spades. You have enough power by the rule of 17.
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03-04-2008, 08:46 PM
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#132
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LYNCH DURRON597
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saving Sinners
Posts: 25,495
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
v/v, imps, pickup p
 AQ6542
 KJ5
 K94
 7
LHO opens 1  , P overcalls 2  (!), RHO bids 3  , I bid 4  . LHO bids 5  and it's passed around to me. ?
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Crazy hand. Looks like they can make 5h. One of them is void in spades, and your KJ is likely to be finessed. 5s might be doable because your partner doesnt have hearts. Depends how the diamonds fall. I think I take my chance and go to 5s
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03-04-2008, 09:48 PM
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#133
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,545
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckleslovakian
Alright maybe I am being paranoid, but I can't get this hand out of my mind from earlier tonight
I am in 4th seat and the bidding is passed to me.
I open 1D.
LHO doubles.
Partner bids 1H
RHO puts down the pass card, then starts to reach for it back and mutters "Oh well I already played it"
I pass
LHO doubles again
WTF???
Does anyone pass, then double twice unless they know their partner actually had a bid they wanted to make? Needless to say they ended up in 2S and top board.
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The hand could easily exist:
 KJxx
 Axx
 x
 JTxxx
Since they are a passed hand, they know that their partner won't go crazy since they are known to be weak, and the auction is about to be passed out at the one level, so they know that their partner has some values.
That having been said, as others have said, you certainly have cause for calling the director, as there is clear Unauthorized Information. If LHO had a flat 11-count (especially with 4 hearts), director may easily roll the contract back to 1H. But with the shapely 9-count above, I think the director should allow it to stand.
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03-04-2008, 10:15 PM
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#134
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,545
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Re: Bridge
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
v/v, imps, pickup p
 AQ6542
 KJ5
 K94
 7
LHO opens 1  , P overcalls 2  (!), RHO bids 3  , I bid 4  . LHO bids 5  and it's passed around to me. ?
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This is a very tough guess, especially with a pickup pard.
You are most likely down 2 in 5H vs. their making game, which is a small gain (4 imps). When they are going down, you lose 7 or 12 imps depending. You could also be down 3 vs. their game, which is lose 4.
You basically only make if partner has a heart void (maybe 50%) and an Ace (~10%?) or crazy shape. Then you gain somewhere between 11 - 16 depending.
Partner should have some outside strength vulnerable, and you may be able to negotiate a club ruff.
Assuming they are like 80% to make their game, and you are 5% to make yours, it's almost dead even from an imps perspective.
Good problem. I think it's a toss-up. I'd guess to pass, but wouldn't criticize a bid. If I didn't think my LHO was a good player, I'd be more likely to pass, as this could be a very tricky contract.
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03-06-2008, 09:50 PM
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#135
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,580
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Re: Bridge
So... doubling was probably a mistake, huh? We ended up setting them one b/c partner showed up with strong diamonds. 5S was also on though, so we got a bad score.
Here's a more interesting one. v/n
 KQ9862
 Q9863
 K
 K
(interestingly enough, hand before was 8 AKT KQT9xxxx 7... distributional fun!)
P opens in second seat, opps are silent.
1D-1S
2H-?
spoiler if you choose 4NT (std blackwood)
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