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Old 11-30-2015, 12:46 AM   #1
Donovan
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Sick of this spot giving me headaches

I am a bit confused on how to play good Ax on raggedy flop, OOP, 3 bet pot.
Eg;
50nl,
100bb effective
SB opens 2bb
BB(hero) AcJc, raises to 7bb
SB calls 5bb
Flop; 2d2s9h
Hero????
wtf?

Any reads at all make me want to check call, cbet, or check and fold.
Assume conflicting stats or read less.. Let's just say this is hand 3 vs unknown and nothing pops out as unusual.

I think this is so close that even a single club or broadway card on the flop makes me bet planning to fire a lot of turns.

I have been check calling as default but I'm just folding sooo many turns.

This is prob an obv spot but it's giving me fits lately.

What should my read less default play be here?

Edit; ok, in complete honesty I never check fold here but it's starting to seem OK to me since nothing else seems to be going that well
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:23 AM   #2
OMG_IM_SEXY
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

bet small so that you force villain to continue a range that you are well ahead of and therefore get value from your hand
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:29 PM   #3
Donovan
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG_IM_SEXY View Post
bet small so that you force villain to continue a range that you are well ahead of and therefore get value from your hand
That actually seems pretty ok,..
What about balance,
What other hands do I do this with?

Anyone else agree/ disagree w this?
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:44 PM   #4
GerryBoulet
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

i strongly disagree
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:54 PM   #5
jungleman
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

hmmm this is actually quite a good spot for you
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:20 PM   #6
karkok
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

I would bet always 1/2pot with backdoor Ace flush cards. And otherwise it depends how I think is V. tendencies. If I feel fear or I want to try to dominate I bet 1/2pot or just try to set a tone
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:54 PM   #7
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

value bet for 3 cheeseburgers - 2 large fries - 1 filletofish + 1 large soft drink
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:24 PM   #8
Donovan
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

I'm sure this is a simple spot, I feel like I ought to know what to do here and, in fact, I used to
I used to simply cbet the flop because, well, I was PFR and prob had the best hand so.. CBET EVERYTING
then I learned some stuff and "REALLY knew what to do". I would say to myself "will he call w worse? Fold better?", and think I would be getting val from so few hands that i would "obviously" treat my hand as a bluff catcher/SDV.
Then I learned a bit more and realized a) there actually is value here vs worse Ax and it's a good thing to fold out villains equity.. So, cbet it, right?
Then I learned even more and realized that I ought to cbet some Ax and check some and I would cbet if I had back door equity planning to fire a lot of turns. If I had no back door stuff I would bluff catch one street unimproved.

Which brings me to, well, now..
Now I do know quite surely that I do not know what to do w big Ax on ragged flop, OPP in a 3 bet pot, with no back door equity against an unknown villain.

Just found the place where my "sidewalk ends". This must be the outer limit of what I can confidently say I understand.


Vs total unknown , small stakes HU...
AJ on raggedy rainbow flop, 3 bet pot, OOP, as PFR (100 bb to start the hand)..

Is there a consensus here or not?
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:21 AM   #9
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

no there's no consensus to that question because you are trying to generalize stuff that can't be generalized. "a raggedy rainbow flop", alrighty
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:49 AM   #10
Rei Ayanami
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donovan View Post
I'm sure this is a simple spot, I feel like I ought to know what to do here and, in fact, I used to
I used to simply cbet the flop because, well, I was PFR and prob had the best hand so.. CBET EVERYTING
then I learned some stuff and "REALLY knew what to do". I would say to myself "will he call w worse? Fold better?", and think I would be getting val from so few hands that i would "obviously" treat my hand as a bluff catcher/SDV.
Then I learned a bit more and realized a) there actually is value here vs worse Ax and it's a good thing to fold out villains equity.. So, cbet it, right?
Then I learned even more and realized that I ought to cbet some Ax and check some and I would cbet if I had back door equity planning to fire a lot of turns. If I had no back door stuff I would bluff catch one street unimproved.
The next thing you should learn is that the EV of decisions on complex streets can rarely be isolated into a simple set of "reasons", so all of that is total bull****.

Anyway, this spot isn't really that important at all. You probably have a limited amount of time and energy to devote to poker, so do something easy and reliable like either checking or betting a third pot or so, and then move on to working on a spot that can actually improve your winrate.
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:53 AM   #11
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

If it's against a hate to fold to 3b or cbet type villain who also likes to barrel into weakness...

If you think he's going to bet bet bet to try to get folds just take a check line with an overpair and show him you can do that.


Then he can't barrel you off good AX broadways quite as easily without worrying he's spewing into the nuts
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Old 12-08-2015, 01:35 PM   #12
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Isnt this a pretty easy bet flop for value?
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:32 PM   #13
Tutejszy
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerarb View Post
If it's against a hate to fold to 3b or cbet type villain who also likes to barrel into weakness...

If you think he's going to bet bet bet to try to get folds just take a check line with an overpair and show him you can do that.


Then he can't barrel you off good AX broadways quite as easily without worrying he's spewing into the nuts
So, your plan is to spot a horrible leak in villians game and then MAKE HIM STOP DOING THAT? Why would you ever want that?

Also, if you can bluffcatch overpairs, why not bluffcatch Ax?
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Old 10-03-2016, 01:41 AM   #14
ThiccBoi
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

I always wait for a moment till the time is about to put on the extra... and bet something like 1/3ish, that make the fold about 80%, if he calls and put extra bets on turn river you are probably beaten...
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Old 10-03-2016, 06:25 PM   #15
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

probably just saying what is said before. but there is no general one fits all anwser , seems quite player dependent. id say against most 50 nl regs check calling against weak range probably fine. imagine its a little better than betting aslo for not having to deal with getting 3 bet against someone you havent figured out yet.
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Old 10-04-2016, 06:44 PM   #16
lolposting2016
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

zomg jungleman posted itt
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Old 10-05-2016, 09:31 AM   #17
AGODSENDFORPOKER
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Have you guys already fix it (hold'em) to poker? You actually have 229AJ, it's a smallest pair. BET!
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Old 10-27-2016, 01:35 PM   #18
Donovan
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by samooth View Post
no there's no consensus to that question because you are trying to generalize stuff that can't be generalized. "a raggedy rainbow flop", alrighty
see OP
that's an example of a raggedy rainbow flop. And, listen, there really is such a thing as a default answer. Sometimes the spot can be so variable sensitive that any info at all about our villain can tip the scales obviously one way or another (which I covered in OP).

Yes there is a thing that we should "usually do" on flops that could be called (raggedy, static rather than volatile, rainbow flops).

Here's my plan now;
again, assuming villain is complete unknown.
I will bet with any back door draws and check and call flop without. I will check fold turn unimproved and i will dub turns that improve my equity if I did c-bet the flop and check and call turn if I check called flop and improved my equity.

We have to talk generally about spots to get anywhere and then we have to talk about what adjustments make sense vs what types of opponents and it is that, knowing what a good default line looks like and how to adjust our ranges/lines based on specifics, and then learn how to identify those things that make us want to adjust.

This is an older OP but I still do think it is close and I don't think it's a poor use of time to discuss or learn to handle this spot because it actually comes up fairly often and because the thought process we use to handle this spot can be very useful in other spots that have something in common with this one.

Should we TEND to c-bet or check on something like a 932, 742, 922, 853 rainbow flop once we 3 bet pre-flop with a hand like AJ, AQ, or AK?

And if we think it depends COMPLETELY on our opponent's propensities then what things does it depend on and in what way should we alter our play/adjust vs what tendencies (remembering that we must have a default plan to even have a place from which to deviate).

Anyone?
What is or should be the consensus in your opinon(s)?
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Old 11-07-2016, 10:59 PM   #19
Yacht67
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

I think I would C-bet on the Flop.
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Old 11-08-2016, 03:46 AM   #20
Onlythenuzt
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Check raise the flop or bet the turn.
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Old 11-09-2016, 09:27 PM   #21
Donovan
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

I think betting small makes plenty of sense here. I don't want to look at it as a value bet or a bluff exactly, I just think I make money by some combination of; villain calling flop and folding on turn, folding out villains equity, and having 6 outs to a good pair when called on flop and turn.
Additionally, I prob want to bet my range here so I should bet small.

I still think it's close and I can check call vs aggro villain, try to show it down vs straight forward and passive fish, value bet vs sticky villain, bet once vs fit or fold villain so on and so fourth.

Thnx for input all
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Old 11-18-2016, 03:29 AM   #22
JudgeHoldem1848
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donovan View Post

Should we TEND to c-bet or check on something like a 932, 742, 922, 853 rainbow flop once we 3 bet pre-flop with a hand like AJ, AQ, or AK?
I think in this spot it looked like betting was a good default. The reason could roughly be described as getting thin value and folding out live equity while eliminating the option (check-call) which inevitably leads to low ex-showdown value. It might be 1bb better to bet out, and that's probably more or less true across the raggety boards you named.

That's exploitable but you'll rarely have a sample to suggest you're being exploited, so betting is a good default. Flop cbet percentage should weakly correlate with flop stab in 3 bet pot. If you check you should call up to a pot sized bet.
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Old 11-21-2016, 12:45 PM   #23
cashmoney111
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

hmm is there spots that don't give us headaches in texas holdem? Oh yes its AA oh wait another 2 outter. Doctors prescription= +ev( motrin migraine before each session and a psychiatrist session once a week about your bad beats)
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Old 12-18-2016, 11:49 PM   #24
Yacht67
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

Think betting on the flop is a smart play. Don't want to get too cute doing anything else.
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Old 12-21-2016, 10:00 PM   #25
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Re: Sick of this spot giving me headaches

thanks for that
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