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Old 03-14-2009, 05:47 PM   #1
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NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

Villain is a fairly NL400 standard reg. He's pretty straightforward overall and seems like an ok handreader. I've been donkbetting a bit but at this point he doesn't have a reason to think that my range for doing it is particularly strong or weak; he probably has no idea about what kind of range I'm donking w/ because nothing was shown down yet in this spot. He had toned down his cbetting and he knows that I could very well be donking strong hands. At this point, I'm up multiple buyins on him but he's definitely not tilting.


Party Poker $400.00 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $1223.25
BTN/SB: $1124.50

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BB with 5 4
BTN/SB raises to $12, Hero calls $8

Flop: ($24.00) 4 Q 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $20.00, BTN/SB calls $20

Turn: ($64.00) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $48.00, BTN/SB calls $48

River: ($160.00) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $118.00, BTN/SB raises to $376, Hero raises to $1143.25

His BTN VPIP is 68% so he's not showing up with 83 very often. 43 and A2 fold the turn almost every time. He's pretty straightforward so sets, 67, whatever other strong hands all raise flop or turn almost every time because he wants to get stacks in (he has never slowplayed anything up to this point but had plenty of opportunities to do so). He's capable of bluffraising rivers, but he has already done it ~500 hands ago and might not be willing to do it again. I haven't bluffraised a turn or a river myself vs him in about 800 hands of play.

It's ~$650 more to for him to call (a BI and a half!) and I snapshoved. This thread can be summed up in two questions:

1) Should he fold Q3?
2) Will he fold Q3 60% of the time or more? (the bluff needs to work 52% of the time, but his range isn't exactly only Q3)
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:53 PM   #2
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eX3cution View Post
1) Should he fold Q3?
lol


i dont really get why we have to bluff the river cant we just call here if his range is so narrow?
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:07 PM   #3
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

Even if he does bluff enough for this to be a call (which I really don't think he does), shoving is infinitely better if he folds Q3 enough.
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:28 PM   #4
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

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Originally Posted by eX3cution View Post
Even if he does bluff enough for this to be a call (which I really don't think he does), shoving is infinitely better if he folds Q3 enough.
ah ok i see this. sorry that i cant give you any good input but thanks for helping me getting a little more complete
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:35 PM   #5
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

I dont think he's raising Q3 like that. I mean yeah it would be a good raise by him probably but I doubt the person you've described in the OP would do it.
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:41 PM   #6
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

He should fold everything besides a straight unless he's on the level of thinking that you know that he cannot have the nuts but you can have them.

He could have bee double floating with A2 of diamonds and 67 def makes sense and it's fine not to raise the turn if you have been very tight.
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:03 PM   #7
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

so, by your betting, i'd say you're repping 44, 88, 67, 54. i don't see you doing this with like QT or something. correct me if i'm wrong, btw. (what range do you donk out all 3 streets with?) villain, knowing this, raises you a hefty amount. my spidey senses are tingling.
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:21 PM   #8
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

Im with insyder, I think its good. At what point is this for value? 44? 55?
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:37 PM   #9
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

mdom88: He's definitely raising Q3 every single time because of our past history (him bluffraising river + me vbetting thin and donking a decent amount).

insyder19: A2 of diamonds is 1 combo and I really can't imagine this villain not raising 67 on the turn. It's safe to assume that the times he shows up with straights and the times he show up with bluffs roughly negate eachother and really the point is to fold out Q3.

Gugel: I could definitely play QT like that.

gimmetheloot: 44 = 55, and shoving them for value makes sense.
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:49 PM   #10
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

ex3cution, why did you lead on flop w/ bottom pair on this board? don't make sense to me and seems a terrible play. do you mind say why you bet lead ?

when you turned 2pair seems standard bet on turn, ok, and on river i love your play. vnh. i would say he NEVER call a shove w/ Q3 (and i agree his range is basically Q3), plus he 'never' has sets/str8s... and IF he has sets/A2, its very very hard to him call w/ these hands because your line is perfect to rep the nut straight.
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:01 PM   #11
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

ok, here's the thing. the flop is ideal for villain the to cbet with his entire range. it just really misses your bb calling range. since you know that, i'd except you to go for a checkraise to build the pot if you had a monster. if the board came like QsTs4c, I can see you leading out with a set of 4s or something, because the villain knows that that board hits your range pretty hard and is more likely to check behind. that being said, i'd be worried you had 67 here, but i really wouldn't be too worried about a set. i can only put you on exactly 1 hand and that always makes me really want to call. would i actually call with Q3? i dunno, it would be pretty ****ing close.
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:07 PM   #12
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

Flop lead is essentially a semibluff. He wasn't playing back much to my donks and he wasn't cbetting much so I prefered donking here to c/c or c/f or having to deal with a delayed cbet on a random turn.

Edit: Gugel, that flop hits my BB range pretty hard by giving all my hands either pairs or gutshots. I had been checkraising enough earlier in the match for him to stop cbetting such boards and he could definitely see me donk strong hands here.
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Old 03-14-2009, 09:25 PM   #13
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

i nominate this thread for strat post of the month, it showed me i've still got a lot to learn
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:10 PM   #14
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

I reallly like this bluff.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:24 PM   #15
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Re: NL400: So I bet/3bet bluff a river 300 bbs deep...

I just talked with a mate about this hand and we actually thought about something,

what does villain ever raise here for value the way the hand played out?

He never get to the river with 33. He isn't even raising Q3 for value probably because the hands that call him have him beat anyway unless you were calling with any pair on the river.

So we were thinking about, why did you not call with your actual two pair?

Right now I feel like the only hands that raise the river for value are pure nuts that villain isn't folding as raising Q3 is pretty thin as you can have a set that's not folding and therefore villain is value cutting himself way too often to make it profitable against a reg.
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