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(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management (NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management

01-23-2008 , 06:44 PM
As promised here are a few excerpts from the article I was going to submit, but decided not to.

Some of you might find this article a little basic, some might find it very useful. I think there's at least a blurb or two for everyone of any/all skill levels.

It's not as polished as I'd like it to be but I'm kind of itching to get some hands in today.

Hope you enjoy my Carpal/Tunnel post!

Use this article as a guide to learning HU NL poker. Do not use this article as a 1-2-3 formulaic approach to beating HU NL. Although certain concepts are presented in a 1-2-3 formulaic approach it is important to try to understand and emulate the thought processes beneath the strategy. My biggest breakthrough in poker came when I started asking “why?” Why is this play profitable? Why is this bluff profitable? Why is this a leak? Why did my opponent call me there? Some of this material may seem basic, some might be slightly more advanced.

Hand ranges in HUNL are the widest of any format. Voluntary Put in Pot (VPIP), or the percentage a player sees the flop, are on average much higher than standard play in other formats such as 6max or Full Ring. This means that aggression and hand reading are going to be the two primary skills for besting opponents. The reason these skills are crucial is because the main profit in HUNL comes from forcing your opponent to leave equity on the table. This is easier (and hence, theoretical max win rates are so much higher than 6max or Full Ring) because the hand ranges are so wide, suggesting that the average winning hand is going to be fairly low. Many players come into HUNL with a 6max mentality for hand values (they need at least top pair to showdown in most cases) which creates a pocket of profit since the average winning hand in a HUNL situation is going to be much less than top pair.

Hand Reading: In order to learn to peer into your opponent’s soul, there is simply no substitute for playing countless hours of poker and reviewing your sessions. Hand reading inherently requires empathy. Some people have a natural gift for empathy, some don’t. Almost everyone can fine tune their sense of empathy and practice is the key to doing so. The first rule of hand reading is to ask yourself “if I were to have hand XY, how would I play it in a straightforward manner?” This applies to low and micro stakes where typically players are not that tricky because they do not assume (or care) that you are thinking critically about each hand. The second requisite skill for hand reading is recall. Recall is defined as one’s ability to remember past hands and to remember your opponents “line” or pattern of betting they undertook. Since almost all major Poker sites provide space for note taking, coupled with programs like Poker Tracker and PokerAce HUD, there is no excuse to not have excellent recall. To learn how to read hands better I strongly suggest playing heads up limit. Yes, low limit HU limit is a losing proposition due to rake but it will help you develop a sense of relative hand strength since you will be showing down much more often.

Aggression: This is the bread and butter of HUNL. Aggression is the key to success in HUNL. I have seen a problem with many budding HU poker players, they take the term “aggression” the wrong way, meaning they are constantly bombarding their opponent with large bets, firing 3 barrels with no pair and no draw and trying to win every pot. When you hear the term “aggression” in any hold’em context it should always be synonymous with “controlled aggression” or “constant pressure.” Generally speaking you always want to have significant (25%+) equity in any pot in which you are going to pursue aggressively. Imagine a typical $1/$2 HUNL game. Your opponent makes a standard raise on the button (OTB) and you call in the BB with XY. There is $12 in the pot. The flop comes down giving you an open-ended straight draw (OESD) which is generally above 25% equity even against a flopped set. You have a roughly 32% chance (using the 2%/4% rule you have 8 outs x 4% = 32%) of making your straight by the river. Your opponent makes a standard continuation bet of $8, and you raise to $24. What are we trying to accomplish? First off, simply calling out of position (OOP) with a straight draw is not going to be profitable long term unless you have extremely high implied odds. Implied odds take into account the amount of money you will be able to extract off of your opponent when you make your hand. Since we generally do not have the correct implied odds in this situation in standard 100BB situations, we must create another method of extracting profit. Enter Fold Equity (FE). Simply put, Fold Equity is the percentage that your opponent folds to your bet. In other words, how often can you make your opponent leave money on the table? Remember, making your opponent leave both equity and money on the table is exactly how profits are made in HUNL. In our example hand there is $20 in the pot ($12 pre flop + $8 from our opponent’s continuation bet) we raise to $24 making the pot $44. Some basic math tells us that our bluff needs to work 24 times out of 44 (risking $24 to win $20) or roughly 54.5% of the time. This may seem astronomical but there are a few key factors in our favor. First off, your opponent is only going to make a pair on the flop 1 in 3 times. With just that fact alone, our opponent should be folding 66.66% of the time. In practice we must add draws into the equation, but we also gain several advantages in a practical setting. Opponents are rarely going to continue with bottom pair, underpair to the board, gutshots with an over, and even second pair weak to mid kicker. Some opponents may fold mid pair good kicker and top pair weak kicker to flop aggression. But wait! There’s more! Since we decided to utilize “controlled aggression”, meaning we have equity in the pot, our flop check-raise doesn’t have to be nearly as successful as the math suggests since we make the nuts with our OESD roughly 1 in 3 times if we are allowed to see the river. Not to mention we have opportunities to semi-bluff the turn if we are called on the flop. In our example, let’s assume villain calls our raise to $24, there is now $58 in the pot. This gives us an even better chance to semi-bluff, since a bet of $49 into the $58 pot ($107 total) means that our bluff must only work 49 times out of 107 (45.79%) and of course we still have equity going to the river as well as the opportunity to bluff the river, as well as the chance that we made our hand on the turn.

Beating Down the Passive Players:

If you are a serious HUNL player you no doubt practice some form of game selection. While everyone will have their ideal match up, many players like to play loose/passive players. These players are identified by high VPIP and low PFR and a propensity to call OOP. Often these players can limp the button as well.

The best strategy to employ against these players is to go for value in position and pounding on them out of position. In fact, being OOP can be more profitable than being IP against these players assuming they have some key characteristics such as calling 3bets WAY too light and calling flop check raises much too light. On the button you should be raising with the top 60-65% of your hands. There is no need to play raggedy hands even IP against calling stations, their willingness to call makes very bad hands lose value. You can open up your button range against loose/passives if you have a very high success rate of taking down the pot on the flop, and/or getting them to fold with a bet on the turn. On the flop you should be c-betting 70%+ and betting all pairs for value as well as draws. All reasonable draws should be double barreled as to build a large pot for the river where you can get value when you make your hand or you can bluff a scare card, or check behind on a dismal river that doesn’t help you represent a hand.

When playing OOP there are a few things to factor in. First, is your opponent limping the button? If so, are they calling raises? I usually employ a 4-4.5 x BB bet when raising OOP. If they have an unwillingness to call I am going to raise with any two cards until they adjust. More likely than not they will catch on and start to call some bets or possibly limp-re-raise (LRR). When this occurs my range becomes 22+, JT+ and sometimes some suited connectors. I am cbetting 100% of flops and double barreling any scare cards. If I turn a strong draw I might elect for a check raise all in (CRAI) if villain has shown a propensity to bet when checked to. This shouldn’t happen often given that we are playing a loose/passive player, so more often than not I am simply going to fire a second barrel.
Against a LRR I have to have a read in order to call lightly OOP and/or shove over. If I have a good sense that my opponent is simply frustrated from being bombed on IP, I will call LRRs with KJ type hands. Obviously you have to go with it on a K or J high flop, or any reasonable draw. With 99+ I’m going to 4bet shove if pot size permits as I find that villain’s will often call with small pocket pair when frustrated.

When the pot is unraised and a flop is seen I love to apply pressure. This works especially well against opponents who have a PFR of 10-20%. Those opponents tend to tell you what they have pre-flop so that when they limp OTB you can assume their hand is weak (and it usually is). In that respect, if the flop comes down A33 and villain cbets, I am going to raise with ATC. So long as you get your bet-sizing right you should be able to profitably run this play with fold-success rates of 55%. Imagine the pot is $4 and villain bets $2, the pot is now $6, if you raise to $8 that should be more than enough to raise out air and only needs to succeed 57% of the time. I generally don’t like raising with no equity whatsoever, but the aforementioned case is the exception. I will CR a wide variety of flops with as little as bottom pair. The key though is that ONE BARREL IS NOT ENOUGH! I can’t stress that enough, the “play” is two-fold as loose/passive players will call flop CRs with almost any piece, however the profit comes in on the turn where they are much more hesitant to continue in the pot without a big hand when you fire again. If villain calls flop CR and turn lead you can generally give up unless you get a beauty of a river to bluff at.

Bluffing:
This aspect of Hold’em took me the longest to understand. I still certainly do not fully understand bluffing as I’m always amazed at what opponents are willing to call with. First and foremost, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BLUFF PLAYERS OFF TOP PAIR AT LOW STAKES. Just save yourself the trouble. I can’t count how many times I said to myself “This guy has top pair no kicker, Imma bluff him out!!!!” It is just not profitable. The types of hands you want to fold with your bluffs are:

1. Better high cards (you fold JT, flop is 286r, you cbet and fold out A3)
2. Bottom or 2nd pair (you hold 29o OOP, opponent limps the button, you check, flop is 3 7 J, you check to opponent, opponent pots you CR, opponent mucks A3o
3. Underpair (you hold A3 you raise OTB, opponent calls with 33, flop is K97, you cbet to take down the pot)
4. Draws – You can only really take an opponent off a draw with a big check-raise or on the river. A good example is a hand like 86 on a T67 flop, check-raising this flop can make villain fold a large amount of hands that have very strong draws against you and tons of equity (J8 has about 35% equity in this pot but can’t call a raise). You can hopefully remove an opponent off of a flush or straight draw by a CRAI on the turn.


Pay attention to these cases when you are making bets. A bet should always accomplish 1 of 2 things:

1. Fold better hands
2. Extract value out of worse hands

Always, always, always bet for one of the two reasons. Notice “to see where I’m at” is not on that list? Good, because that’s the worst reason to raise or bet. Bluffing is no different, and if you can blur the line between bluffing and value-betting you are going to make your opponents continue to guess. For example, against certain breeds of loose/passives I will value-bet ace-high on the flop since they float with weird hands like Q9o on a 265 flop.

Finally, I will end this segment on beating up loose/passives by giving you the ultimate advice. If you’re not in the driver’s seat during the hand, you are probably behind. When your edge is massive there’s really no need to stack off in marginal spots. A marginal spot against a loose/passive could be as “good” as having an overpair or TPTK facing a push. They are called loose/passives for a reason, and if you aren’t driving the action in the hand there’s a really good chance you are beat.

Bankroll Management and Variance:
I had found, and digested, a very nicely done post on winrate and variance:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...light=Variance
I had also created an Excel spreadsheet based on the concepts in the article:
http://www.savefile.com/files/1292691
What you can take from the article?

Answer: Winrate is king. If you aren’t really beating up your stakes you should move down. A player winning at roughly 5.75 PTBB/100 has a 23% chance of breaking even after 10k hands. That’s reasonably significant. It’s my opinion that if you can’t beat the game for 5+ PTBB/100 or higher moving down one level will provide a much higher winrate and significantly lowered variance.

As far as bankroll you really shouldn’t play with anything less than 30 buyins for casual players and 50+ for pros (I prefer 100 personally). Shot taking against really bad opponents is completely acceptable but you should set, and stick to, your stop loss.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 07:19 PM
Solid, thanks. The bit about aggression is key.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 07:59 PM
Very nice!

Thanks for this.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 08:15 PM
good stuff. thanks a lot.
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01-23-2008 , 08:16 PM
I want to thank you for writing this, I think these types of post are what make the forum great. I hope I can contribute something like this one day.
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01-23-2008 , 08:39 PM
good article, ty.
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01-23-2008 , 09:11 PM
I really liked what you said about hand reading, truly great hand readers empathize with their villain. I was a little let down by the Loose Passive section, you didnt discuss many adjustments in position I generally use. Also I disagree with part about tightening up preflop and I would argue with you about the reason for double barreling a lot of draws against these players is not that it builds a pot but rather that they have a very wide range on the flop and will fold often, Id much rather just check behind if they are always calling rather than "build a pot" however I wouldnt say its not a factor.

Saying to not bluff people off top pair at low stakes is pretty misleading especially because you promoted interpreting the situation before, it wont come up as often but keep your eyes open. I also strongly disagree with this:

Quote:
Pay attention to these cases when you are making bets. A bet should always accomplish 1 of 2 things:

1. Fold better hands
2. Extract value out of worse hands
Its sort of true on the river (I guess inducing a bluff counts as extracting value) but theres lots of flop and turn situations I can think of where these dont apply.

Finally, you said your favorite kind of player to play heads up is a loose passive player, wouldnt you much prefer a bad loose aggressive player? Personally I feel the majority of my profit comes from picking off bluffs.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:12 PM
Why do you think pounding them when you're OOP and they limp is better than pounding them while you're in position? Obviously if they limp they've announced that their holding is not top 10% preflop, but that's not really a huge edge, and their range is gonna be pretty much the same as their calling range from the blind.

So you're playing with basically the same hand ranges as when you raise your button, only this time they have position... How can that be a better spot?
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwar
I would argue with you about the reason for double barreling a lot of draws against these players is not that it builds a pot but rather that they have a very wide range on the flop and will fold often, Id much rather just check behind if they are always calling rather than "build a pot" however I wouldnt say its not a factor.
Yeah, the value of 2barreling your draw is a combination of fold equity + pot equity + implied odds. I agree that implied odds aren't the biggest factor. it should be easy to demonstrate that mathematically.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creedofhubris
Why do you think pounding them when you're OOP and they limp is better than pounding them while you're in position? Obviously if they limp they've announced that their holding is not top 10% preflop, but that's not really a huge edge, and their range is gonna be pretty much the same as their calling range from the blind.

So you're playing with basically the same hand ranges as when you raise your button, only this time they have position... How can that be a better spot?
Aw yes, critical assumption left out. Lots and lots of these players LOVE to limp the button, then minbet, or sometimes pot it. A large amount do this 100% of the time.

Plus, you can't CR while IP against loose/passives, but you can OOP.

Furthermore, loose/passives naturally negate positional advantage mostly because they aren't tricky, they rarely bluff and they call A LOT, making the ability to CR >>>>> position against a certain breed of loose/passive.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ
Aw yes, critical assumption left out. Lots and lots of these players LOVE to limp the button, then minbet, or sometimes pot it. A large amount do this 100% of the time.

Plus, you can't CR while IP against loose/passives, but you can OOP.

Furthermore, loose/passives naturally negate positional advantage mostly because they aren't tricky, they rarely bluff and they call A LOT, making the ability to CR >>>>> position against a certain breed of loose/passive.
Soooo true.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:24 PM
Could you discuss how you go about setting up a value c/r against this type of player? Some different spots or whatever would be great (I think its a huge leak in my own game), what do you look for when setting it up? What factors make you think this LP is going to bet such and such turn when you know the call flops wide and dont bluff often.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwar
I really liked what you said about hand reading, truly great hand readers empathize with their villain. I was a little let down by the Loose Passive section, you didnt discuss many adjustments in position I generally use. Also I disagree with part about tightening up preflop and I would argue with you about the reason for double barreling a lot of draws against these players is not that it builds a pot but rather that they have a very wide range on the flop and will fold often, Id much rather just check behind if they are always calling rather than "build a pot" however I wouldnt say its not a factor.

Saying to not bluff people off top pair at low stakes is pretty misleading especially because you promoted interpreting the situation before, it wont come up as often but keep your eyes open. I also strongly disagree with this:


Its sort of true on the river (I guess inducing a bluff counts as extracting value) but theres lots of flop and turn situations I can think of where these dont apply.

Finally, you said your favorite kind of player to play heads up is a loose passive player, wouldnt you much prefer a bad loose aggressive player? Personally I feel the majority of my profit comes from picking off bluffs.
Yes, the primary factor of double barreling the draw is because they are folding a lot to two barrels for the reasons mentioned... when they aren't folding you have a reasonable sized pot that you can pump or check behind on the river, which is very very valuable against loose/passives.

I'd be curious to know of a situation that doesn't fit into betting for value or betting to fold someone's hand. Personally I think that debate would deteriorate into a battle on semantics.

I'm curious what adjustments you make IP against loose/passives. Part of the issue with them is that their range is so wide and their actions so limited (call call call) which can really disguise the strength of their hand... that's why I'd really rather fold 84o. Taylor Caby seems to agree with you as well, but so far I haven't heard any argument that I feel warrants loosening up pre-flop against the average loose/passive.

But by all means, this isn't the LJ show, post your ideas and make this thread great. Certainly more than one approach, and as cwar pointed out I made a bit of a mistake anyway (FE >>> pot size when double barreling draws, although pot size is pretty critical).

And fwiw, I'm ridiculously hung over.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterLJ

I'd be curious to know of a situation that doesn't fit into betting for value or betting to fold someone's hand.
Blocking bet?
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creedofhubris
Blocking bet?
The easiest example I can think of is the information bet, I do it a lot live where Ill just bet like 1/4 pot or something on the flop just so I can see what happens and watch people put their chips in. I know theres 0% chance of all 4 villains folding or w/e but its still a good bet in some spots.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwar
Could you discuss how you go about setting up a value c/r against this type of player? Some different spots or whatever would be great (I think its a huge leak in my own game), what do you look for when setting it up? What factors make you think this LP is going to bet such and such turn when you know the call flops wide and dont bluff often.
My CRs are always a mix of value and bluffing... I really blur the line as much as possible. In truth, I show these down so rarely that I often don't know if I'm bluffing or for value, although if you have any pair it's generally for value. This is why bet-sizing is crucial. You really need to make sure your CRs give you a less than 60% "Opponent Needs to Fold" value, even with equity. That means at 2/4 the average limped pot is $8, and the minbet is $4, making a pot of $12. I like raising to $15... risking 15 aginst 27 = 55.55%. And as I said in the article the bread and butter of the play is the follow up cbet on the turn.

As for the latter part of your question, it's really a rare combination of playing to be loose/passive with aggro tendencies... oh yeah, forgot to mention it before but I do like loose/aggros as well but at times they don't know what they are doing so it's very hard to make hero calls. In that respect I'd ***almost*** rather play a good aggro player because you can get into his head a little.

But to answer your question, I will try everything at least once with new opponents, checking a turn to him, etc etc... feel them out.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-23-2008 , 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creedofhubris
Blocking bet?
Like I said, this part would end up in semantics. I would consider a blocking bet as a type of value bet. I suppose it does have a little more value than that though.

Betting for information is generally going to be really bad unless you can use that information for a higher EV purpose.

The main point of that section was to highlight that "betting to see where I'm at" is quite bad.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-24-2008 , 01:14 AM
1. getting a better hand to fold
2. value betting

Im a little confused, so let me give an example...

early in a match and opponent seems reasonable so far
Q9 otb standard open raise and bb calls

Q56r and bb cr the flop and I call looking to push the turn after he leads
because his range is wide and tp will be good.

But I dont want and dont expect to get called.
So how does my turn shove fit into one of your two categories ?

Is my line wrong overall?
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-24-2008 , 01:42 AM
Your line is wrong because most worse hands won't call, so it's not for value and almost all better hands snapcall, so it's not a bluff.

That's why checking behind with TPWK or TPMK is good, as well as just flatting turn and resolving to showdown, that way opponent can bluff at least.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-24-2008 , 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Propping Fool
1. getting a better hand to fold
2. value betting

Im a little confused, so let me give an example...

early in a match and opponent seems reasonable so far
Q9 otb standard open raise and bb calls

Q56r and bb cr the flop and I call looking to push the turn after he leads
because his range is wide and tp will be good.

But I dont want and dont expect to get called.
So how does my turn shove fit into one of your two categories ?

Is my line wrong overall?
yes the shove is pointless if you dont think ou are geting called by worse but think you have the best hand.
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-24-2008 , 02:50 AM
I highly agree with the way to think. Everything should be done for a reason. Saying that you are betting/raising because you have top pair is NOT a good reason. A good reason would be "I am raising with top pair second kicker because my opponent will call with plently of worse hands, and raise with very few hands. There is more value in raising than calling because there are plenty of turn cards which could kill my action."

I do disagree in that there are only two reasons to bet. A blocking bet is clearly a third option, even though it is a cross between a bluff and value bet. If you are blocking with a draw you are bluffing because you are putting money in with what you think is most likely the worst hand, but it's not completely a bluff because you don't mind getting called.

theres my 2 cents for now
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01-24-2008 , 03:23 AM
deleted
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-24-2008 , 04:06 AM
thanks for the post!

but you said that this article would have a section on table selection. where is it?


Thanks for everything!
(NL Theory) Approach to HU - beating loose/passives and BR management Quote
01-24-2008 , 04:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallas14
thanks for the post!

but you said that this article would have a section on table selection. where is it?


Thanks for everything!
Oh bah!

THings to look for:

1. High Call PFR
2. High VPIP
3. Low PFR
4. Button Limping
5. Minraising
6. Limp calling
7. Low aggro

Fred Bush has some good articles in 2+2 magazine on villain selection as well.
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01-24-2008 , 10:06 AM
Great post MasterJ, please post more in the future
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