I had terrible turbulence on a flight back from france a really massive storm and i still believe to this day i saw lightening hit the wing. It felt like the plane was literally dropping out the sky sometimes and just going so much side to side and up and down.
The kid next to me puked all over himself and got me abit, all you could hear was people puking and the smell well lets just put it this way it was **** vile! Im still so suprised i didnt puke just from the smell of the place!
When i went to get off the plane there was sick all down the isle so you had to like jump over bits of sick to get off
Even after a really terrible turbulence ive never been worried about getting back on a plane, i kinda just feel like well if its guna go down theres **** all i can do and pretty much going to die but think the numbers are more likely you will die in a car crash then a plane crash anyways
There's been only one incident caused by turbulence in whole history of airplanes, and it was japan military one. 30-35% crashes happen at ascending, 40% - at descending, and the rest is in between.
hmm the thing i dont get is if u think the company will work and ur passionate about the business idea and u were a successful poker player playing 5knl then 50k isnt rly much to invest urself.... or get other HS players that like the idea to invest, seems to me that the way you gone about it isnt the right way
seems like u trying to freeroll a business no offence
edit: maybe i have the whole concept wrong but thats the way its come across to me, anyways glgl
Well, I'd guess that's what'll probably happen (other HS players investing) if it goes ahead. There's been one pledge on $20k. That could have been Scansion himself or on of his HS friends involved in setting up. Ultimately I don't think they'll receive much "donation" from randoms in the community, they'll more likely be putting in there own money or getting other HS players to put in a bit.
I assume this is something which could work on kickstarter because you can sell the "donation" as a means to a more profitable future in heads up poker, and people who play high stakes and are passionate about the serious problem with heads up games are likely to forfeit a buy in or two towards a solution, even if it's not an investment upon which any direct return will be seen.
I had terrible turbulence on a flight back from france a really massive storm and i still believe to this day i saw lightening hit the wing. It felt like the plane was literally dropping out the sky sometimes and just going so much side to side and up and down.
The kid next to me puked all over himself and got me abit, all you could hear was people puking and the smell well lets just put it this way it was **** vile! Im still so suprised i didnt puke just from the smell of the place!
When i went to get off the plane there was sick all down the isle so you had to like jump over bits of sick to get off
Even after a really terrible turbulence ive never been worried about getting back on a plane, i kinda just feel like well if its guna go down theres **** all i can do and pretty much going to die but think the numbers are more likely you will die in a car crash then a plane crash anyways
The planes are prepared for a lighting to hit them, actually this happens all over the world all the time so dont worry about that .
Hardware project reward you with their product if you pledge; games tend to give you a digital download. The other incentive is backing something really cool, which works surprisingly well on kickstarter.
I think the concept of crowdfunding on a pure gift-reward basis is fine for private ventures and very concrete business projects. It works well because because money seekers can credibly signal their intentions and future effort due to reputation at stake, and high project transparency, shrinking the overall risk of (complete) project failure for investors.
An artist that seeks 5K to paint a picture on a huge wall can very credibly signal that he is really going to paint that picture; he isn't likely to put only little effort into his own art and he isn't likely to take the money and run because he has his reputation at stake. In addition, his project is very transparent; he can let investors know what he needs the money for, what style the picture will have, at what wall he will paint the picture on, and when it's going to be done.
If I were an investor who thinks that the value created from this project (+ my reward) is worth the amount x, then I'm going to pledge, even though I understand that I'm either creating a private good that I won't own or a public good, where I effectively allow people to free-ride me. The key to a successfully crowdfunded project is not only to find enough investors who "get it" and see value in having such a good created, but more importantly to also establish a low perceived risk profile, i.e. to convince investors that the project will actually be completed.
Let's take a slightly more delicate example: a local bakery that needs 20K to pay off debt in order to avoid bankruptcy. I'm arguing that all of the above points apply; the owner can credibly signal that he wants to save his bakery; he has his reputation at stake; an he can make the debt situation transparent to potential investors, thus creating a low risk profile.
I think it's very different with start-ups. It's tough for entrepreneurs to credibly signal their ability, future effort and that they won't shirk. There is less reputation capital at stake because it's perfectly fine for a start-up to fail. Start-ups and their operations are very opaque, making it very hard for investors to realize whether a start-up went bankrupt due to bad management or due to bad luck or some unforeseen problems. All in all, start-ups have a high risk profile which will discourage potential investors from investing, even if they "get it".
Since this has always been the case, one of the tools that emerged in order to encourage potential investors are contracts that allow for upside participation, or more concretely equity stake. Since the risk profile is inherent to the start-up, one must up the rewards to incentivize investors. That's common venture capital practice.
Anyhow, what start-ups should definitely be doing (even if they don't offer equity as reward) is to make themselves as transparent as possible. Maybe I just don't get the site (Kickstarter), but I don't see a business plan/prospectus or even a future communication plan (in general, not only for KOTHpoker). Only a video. This really is as intransparent as it gets, creating an even higher high risk profile for start-ups that seek investors through this site.
Personally, I think that KOTHpoker is a good idea, and I would love this to be realized. I read most of the threads involving the heads up situation and I believe I read most of your (relevant) posts/threads, too. Actually, I guess I even have some interest in being invested in such a start-up. But honestly, the fact that you are seeking 50K for your company through Kickstarter almost comes across a little insulting to me. Note that I'm not saying that it's unethical; all the points I made above were just to illustrate that I think funding a start-up with substantial risk on a no-reward basis is a very flawed concept and not likely to be working out very well in most cases.
However, I have to criticize you for your financing/communication strategy. You're effectively seeking for 50K that comes out directly of the poker community (feel free to disagree). You made a bad job at making your venture transparent, which is so crucial especially after what this community has been through in the last years. I'm guessing you already did a lot of research - why not give us some insight so that we get an idea of how likely it is that there will be a real money KOTHpoker? How much money will you need to get the site running? What's the time plan? Etc.
Maybe crowdfunding is the right financing tool for KOTHpoker. But I just don't get why you wouldn't let investors participate. A truly players owned poker site. Sounds cool to me. Maybe you should just create a "2p2 fund" where people buy in and the fund gets x% equity stake in KOTHpoker at a valuation that is obviously a joke at the start. You could use that fund for later financing rounds as well, maybe even at reasonable valuations. Just playing around here, I haven't put much thought into that. Still, I don't think it's fine to ask for 50K for free; or more precisely, I think there are strategies of how to get the community to finance your site that will work out better for your company and look more fair to me.
Just my personal opinion, of course. That being said, I wish you good luck!
edit: woooooo, tl;dr. Also, this took me so long that I haven't read what the others posted, yet, so maybe this is redundant.
I had terrible turbulence on a flight back from france a really massive storm and i still believe to this day i saw lightening hit the wing. It felt like the plane was literally dropping out the sky sometimes and just going so much side to side and up and down.
The kid next to me puked all over himself and got me abit, all you could hear was people puking and the smell well lets just put it this way it was **** vile! Im still so suprised i didnt puke just from the smell of the place!
When i went to get off the plane there was sick all down the isle so you had to like jump over bits of sick to get off
Even after a really terrible turbulence ive never been worried about getting back on a plane, i kinda just feel like well if its guna go down theres **** all i can do and pretty much going to die but think the numbers are more likely you will die in a car crash then a plane crash anyways
I spent all day on planes and got rerouted bc engine overheating, i thought my day sucked. That's so ****ing gross haha. The storm almost sounds cool in theory, but obv not so much irl
I spent all day on planes and got rerouted bc engine overheating, i thought my day sucked. That's so ****ing gross haha. The storm almost sounds cool in theory, but obv not so much irl
hmm the thing i dont get is if u think the company will work and ur passionate about the business idea and u were a successful poker player playing 5knl then 50k isnt rly much to invest urself.... or get other HS players that like the idea to invest, seems to me that the way you gone about it isnt the right way
seems like u trying to freeroll a business no offence
edit: maybe i have the whole concept wrong but thats the way its come across to me, anyways glgl
In mid 2009 I went to college and distanced myself from the poker world. I lost a ton of money at the end of 2008 trying to break into the nosebleeds, and so after I quit I didn't really have a huge amount of money. Black Friday essentially cleaned me out in various ways. (my rakeback site lost almost all its trackers, a few stakees has $$ locked up, and of course what 5 figure-ish amount I had online was gone)
The past few years I've been focusing on other parts of life that I neglected in a full-on obsession with making it to the top. Now I really have no money and am being staked for some WSOP stuff but at the moment kickstarter is definitely our best bet. I regret not making more connections in the poker world, and not keeping in contact with those that I did talk to when I was playing a ton. I felt at the time that I needed to just get away from it all.
I've got a different perspective now, and see poker differently which I think is a good thing. I want to get back into it, and think that poker will always be a big part of my life, but perhaps focusing more on the business side of things will be ideal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khal Drogo
Well, I'd guess that's what'll probably happen (other HS players investing) if it goes ahead. There's been one pledge on $20k. That could have been Scansion himself or on of his HS friends involved in setting up. Ultimately I don't think they'll receive much "donation" from randoms in the community, they'll more likely be putting in there own money or getting other HS players to put in a bit.
I assume this is something which could work on kickstarter because you can sell the "donation" as a means to a more profitable future in heads up poker, and people who play high stakes and are passionate about the serious problem with heads up games are likely to forfeit a buy in or two towards a solution, even if it's not an investment upon which any direct return will be seen.
I don't see a $20k pledge on our page right now, what exactly are you referring to? And yeah you're right, kickstarter donations are usually just about projects you are passionate about. I am honestly very surprised at how well it works; some projects that look only mediocre get a ton of interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samooth
I think the concept of crowdfunding on a pure gift-reward basis is fine for private ventures and very concrete business projects. It works well because because money seekers can credibly signal their intentions and future effort due to reputation at stake, and high project transparency, shrinking the overall risk of (complete) project failure for investors.
An artist that seeks 5K to paint a picture on a huge wall can very credibly signal that he is really going to paint that picture; he isn't likely to put only little effort into his own art and he isn't likely to take the money and run because he has his reputation at stake. In addition, his project is very transparent; he can let investors know what he needs the money for, what style the picture will have, at what wall he will paint the picture on, and when it's going to be done.
If I were an investor who thinks that the value created from this project (+ my reward) is worth the amount x, then I'm going to pledge, even though I understand that I'm either creating a private good that I won't own or a public good, where I effectively allow people to free-ride me. The key to a successfully crowdfunded project is not only to find enough investors who "get it" and see value in having such a good created, but more importantly to also establish a low perceived risk profile, i.e. to convince investors that the project will actually be completed.
Let's take a slightly more delicate example: a local bakery that needs 20K to pay off debt in order to avoid bankruptcy. I'm arguing that all of the above points apply; the owner can credibly signal that he wants to save his bakery; he has his reputation at stake; an he can make the debt situation transparent to potential investors, thus creating a low risk profile.
I think it's very different with start-ups. It's tough for entrepreneurs to credibly signal their ability, future effort and that they won't shirk. There is less reputation capital at stake because it's perfectly fine for a start-up to fail. Start-ups and their operations are very opaque, making it very hard for investors to realize whether a start-up went bankrupt due to bad management or due to bad luck or some unforeseen problems. All in all, start-ups have a high risk profile which will discourage potential investors from investing, even if they "get it".
Since this has always been the case, one of the tools that emerged in order to encourage potential investors are contracts that allow for upside participation, or more concretely equity stake. Since the risk profile is inherent to the start-up, one must up the rewards to incentivize investors. That's common venture capital practice.
Anyhow, what start-ups should definitely be doing (even if they don't offer equity as reward) is to make themselves as transparent as possible. Maybe I just don't get the site (Kickstarter), but I don't see a business plan/prospectus or even a future communication plan (in general, not only for KOTHpoker). Only a video. This really is as intransparent as it gets, creating an even higher high risk profile for start-ups that seek investors through this site.
Personally, I think that KOTHpoker is a good idea, and I would love this to be realized. I read most of the threads involving the heads up situation and I believe I read most of your (relevant) posts/threads, too. Actually, I guess I even have some interest in being invested in such a start-up. But honestly, the fact that you are seeking 50K for your company through Kickstarter almost comes across a little insulting to me. Note that I'm not saying that it's unethical; all the points I made above were just to illustrate that I think funding a start-up with substantial risk on a no-reward basis is a very flawed concept and not likely to be working out very well in most cases.
However, I have to criticize you for your financing/communication strategy. You're effectively seeking for 50K that comes out directly of the poker community (feel free to disagree). You made a bad job at making your venture transparent, which is so crucial especially after what this community has been through in the last years. I'm guessing you already did a lot of research - why not give us some insight so that we get an idea of how likely it is that there will be a real money KOTHpoker? How much money will you need to get the site running? What's the time plan? Etc.
Maybe crowdfunding is the right financing tool for KOTHpoker. But I just don't get why you wouldn't let investors participate. A truly players owned poker site. Sounds cool to me. Maybe you should just create a "2p2 fund" where people buy in and the fund gets x% equity stake in KOTHpoker at a valuation that is obviously a joke at the start. You could use that fund for later financing rounds as well, maybe even at reasonable valuations. Just playing around here, I haven't put much thought into that. Still, I don't think it's fine to ask for 50K for free; or more precisely, I think there are strategies of how to get the community to finance your site that will work out better for your company and look more fair to me.
Just my personal opinion, of course. That being said, I wish you good luck!
edit: woooooo, tl;dr. Also, this took me so long that I haven't read what the others posted, yet, so maybe this is redundant.
Samooth, I really appreciate that you took the time to write this out. I have a few answers for your questions.
First of all, kickstarter doesn't allow the funding of gambling sites. We had to delicately balance both appearing as a play money app, but also appealing to online poker players by mentioning that we'll eventually do real money. If the play money stuff looked like a front for a gambling website, our project would be rejected. In our defense, we have a viable business model for the play money app, but you know as well as I do that our real focus is the bumhunting problem which happens only in real money poker.
We are actually making a point to be extremely open, and I'm disappointed that our kickstarter hasn't depicted this. Some poker sites in the past decade wouldn't even tell you what country they were located in. It's going to be refreshing for players to see exactly what we're up to and what our plans are.
As for our time frame for real money: if funding goes according to plan (kickstarter as well as traditional forms) then it's safe to say we'll offer real money somewhere next year. We're being advised by people who own a gaming license outside of the US, and it's actually going to be cheaper and easier than we thought to get things going. We have talked with a number of Nevada casinos about a US license, and this is looking like a more daunting task. I'd say we wouldn't have a regulated site here by next year, but it's possible.
As for how much we would need, between $250-$500k to get the site up, but marketing and other costs might raise this number. Regardless of how much money we get, we will still actually build the site. It will just be done as a "side project" while we do other things to pay for rent/food. $50k from kickstarter will go a longer way than you might think, and it allows us to not have to give up boatloads of equity. We're riding the "crowdfunding" wave right now - people have a lot of trust in kickstarter and it's at its height in popularity. One project just raised over $10 million.
Having a 2+2 fund for equity will be possible once the JOBS act goes into effect later this year, if I recall correctly. This is something to consider and we've been discussing it.
I wanted to offer 100% rakeback to anyone who pledges $200 or more, but kickstarter sent us a message saying this was not allowed. This is odd because other projects reward your with their creations, which is in a sense what we're doing - offering the software for free while other people pay for it.
Anyways I appreciate your feedback and we'll try to adjust the kickstarter to appeal more to 2p2'ers, while abiding by their terms of service.
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