This forum is an embarrassment.

[ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd]

Or how about we start banning bumhunters from posting in HUNL? It's pretty bad that an amateur could come to 2p2, want to get better, and then he thinks a good player is giving him advice when in reality it's someone who never plays someone with a vpip/pfr gap of less than 30. He would start trying to imitate this player thinking he was very good and wondering why he was losing so much money playing regs.

[ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd]

Originally Posted by TooCuriousso1

Perhaps we need to add another mod in here?

I'll throw my hat into the ring.

[Lefort]

RLMDH.. it looks like you haven't been around here long (May 2011) but if you check out the front page you'll find this:

Online Poker Forum

The Two Plus Two Poker Forums provide thought provoking discussions on poker and gaming topics. With one of the strongest poker and gaming communities, members can expect to find up to date news, poker instruction, gossip, and even book reviews.

We are proud to say our poker forum has over 300,000 members and more than 30,000,000 posts including the poker archives, making us the leading resource for online poker strategy. Our poker forums cover all aspects of gaming and other topics of interest to the poker community.

It's so obviously completely against the spirit of 2p2 altogether to have a forum with likely > 50% of it's "strategy" posts as trolls. It damages it's integrity and doesn't reflect well on 2p2 for the long-run.

[CubKiller]

Pretty sure bumhunters are much worse for the community than anyone trolling.

Sigh

[ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd]

So lefort you are all for banning bumhunters from posting? After all how can you expect them to provide "thought provoking discussions on poker" or "poker instruction" or "the leading resource for online poker strategy" when all they do is ruin the HU lobbies and leech off the poker community?

[Khal Drogo]

Originally Posted by CubKiller

Pretty sure bumhunters are much worse for the community than anyone trolling.

You're right of course. But everyone would appreciate an end to your trolling, although I noticed you have cut down a bit lately.

[Lefort]

Originally Posted by ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd

So lefort you are all for banning bumhunters from posting? After all how can you expect them to provide "thought provoking discussions on poker" or "poker instruction" or "the leading resource for online poker strategy" when all they do is ruin the HU lobbies and leech off the poker community?

Bumhunting is completely irrelevant with respect to this topic. The idea behind 2p2 strategy forums is to discuss strategy. If bumhunters are in here genuinely discussing their true thoughts regarding strategy, that's entirely acceptable and should be encouraged. Maybe their participation will help encourage them to play regs more often.

And CK.. the fact that bumhunting exists in the poker world and is worse for the games than forum trolling is very poor reasoning to defend trolling. With that logic I could do all sorts of bad things for the game and community provided that the effect is less damaging than bumhunting.

[hobo_genius]

as a lurker i agree, it is weird what people find funny on this forum but whatever. the best thing would be to "sink" threads so they cant be bumped

[ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd]

Originally Posted by hobo_genius

as a lurker i agree, it is weird what people find funny on this forum but whatever. the best thing would be to "sink" threads so they cant be bumped

ok Lefort should have less a problem with this comparison. Why do you, as a lurker, feel you have a right to free strategy from good players when you contribute absolutely nothing to the forum? You literally are attempting to leech off the work of others and then the only reason you even make an account is to complain you're not getting enough good **** for free.

@Lefort you're missing the entire point. The point is that posting good strategy, or allowing good strategy to be posted, is -ev for anyone who knows that stuff already. So why is it ok for you to post "you can't profitably call there, fold" to help someone gain some ev but it's not ok for me to post fake/troll info which helps everyone's ev by making it tougher for new poker players (and most of them will be bumhunters aka leeches on the poker world hence the reason bumhunters are definitely relevant to this discussion) to get better and either take our fish or our money? I have yet to see a rational logical argument why posting good strategy that hurts the bottom lines of most good players (who also typically are regular posters) is something that should not only be encouraged but defended by mods.

I find it absolutely hilarious when people make (what they think are) good strat posts in return for all of what 2p2 has given them. The irony of it is all those people who helped you get better through the years? Your post is probably doing the most harm to them. We had this discussion in the full ring section and it was noted that most of the old school 2p2 posters who taught people the most are currently playing somewhere in the 100-1knl range. So it's pretty funny when people finally break through to 400nl or 1knl or something and post strategy to help newbies break through just like they did, and somehow that's supposed to be a reward to the current 100-1knl regs, to help make their games more reg-infested.

Also please note that nothing I've said in this thread is a troll, it's my 100% honest opinion. It seems there is a consensus that trolling is bad for 2p2 in general and I have yet to see a proof of that. In fact I'd argue good strat being posted is far worse for most of us. I don't understand why it's illogical to take a -ev line at the table but then people who take -ev lines on 2p2 get their dicks sucked.

Also the argument of "well if you don't want to contribute you shouldn't post at all" is similarly awful. It is in my interest and the interest of other midstakes+ players (and hsnl players might think some of my legit strat posts are -ev for them) to make our games as soft as possible. Obviously if that is the goal, not posting > posting real strat. But you ignore the fact that if left alone there is a higher probability that the good strategy posted will be read. If instead of not posting, myself and many others try to entertain people, be funny, and make it tougher for people to figure out the real strategy, that is the most +ev play. It's like a spot where fold > call but shove > fold. You're telling us "just fold don't worry about it" when there is a 3rd more profitable option. Obviously if TC/2p2 crack down on it that won't be the case anymore, I'm just explaining my pov for how HUNL was for the last few months.

Oh and one last thing in case I didn't make it clear enough before I still think 99% of HUNL players are awful at poker, have gigantic egos, and are the scum/leeches of the poker world. If someone is aspiring to be someone who has no love for the game, only nits it up for money and leeches off the poker world, then **** them they don't deserve ****. If I had my way I think I would eliminate HU entirely because I think it is a net negative on the poker world and essentially everyone other than the bumhunters who never play anyone with a pulse. Alternatively I hope the sites jack rake up to like 20% uncapped. That way if the fish really want to play HU they will with each other but it won't be possible for all the scumbags to just bumhunt the fish and actually make money at this game while being absolute garbage and contributing nothing. This is why I had absolutely no problem trolling HUNL when there was no anti-troll rule enforced. I guess I'll just stop posting now, at least I can sleep easy tonight knowing most of the legit advice given in this forum is god-awful anyway. Guess you guys can go back to sucking each others' dicks and talking about how high your redlines are.

[Lefort]

I'm not missing the point. You're missing the point and then subsequently that has you thinking that I'm missing the point..

My argument:

It's an extremely poor reflection on 2p2 to have a strategy-based forum littered with trolling and poor attempts at distasteful humor.

What you think my argument is:

It's [blahblahblah insert something about ev for the community] to have a strategy-based forum littered with trolling and poor attempts at distasteful humor.

2p2 was not created for the +ev benefits of it's users, it was created for the ongoing academic approach to poker as a whole and for people to connect and interact with respect to this concept. The fact that users are free to post whatever they want should be respected and not taken advantage of to the point where you have known competent users purposely giving bad strategic advice for their own benefits (whether it be for $ or for cheap laughs).

[ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd]

I'm not really attacking your argument about 2p2, just pointing out how you're a huge moron assuming you play poker and I'd question the advice of someone unable to figure that out just as I'd question the money management advice of someone who spent 50% of each paycheck on lotto tickets.

[hobo_genius]

redline u are beyond retarded, so basically ur saying that these forums are ****ing over midstakes+ players and that everyone should come and make ****ty posts (because that is totally +ev (lol?) that is pathetic.

[ReDLiNeMaKeDiKHaRd]

Nope not at all, maybe try making a coherent argument of your own on why posting strat could possibly be +ev for the games instead of trying to argue a million strawmen? I'm saying strat for any player is -ev. If you're a 10nl HU reg, posting strat that will get the other 10nl regs better and the 10nl fish into not terrible 10nl regs will hurt their bottom line. It's dumb at all ends of the spectrum mainly because of people like you who want to get something for nothing. I just used midstakes because that's what I personally play. I also didn't say everyone should come and make ****ty posts I simply justified my (and others) use of making "****ty" (I prefer the term hilarious) posts.

If 2p2 was a site of a small group of smart people and every english-speaking reg didn't at least lurk I could see a point in posting strat. But instead the ones posting good strat end up letting morons like you get something for nothing and are hurting the quality of the games.

[daveT]

Maybe it would help a little to look at the history of poker knowledge and this forum in general.

"Oh, no, great advice will make the games harder and blah blah blah."

The above has been written ad nauseum on this forum, and there is zero evidence that this assertion is true.

In the year 2004 or so, a book called "Small Stakes Hold'em; Winning Big with Expert Play" came out. This book single-handedly covered all aspects of seriously crushing games up to 10/20 at the time, and this book was the book that layed the groundwork for the so-called "two plus two style."

Despite this book selling well and advancing poker knowledge quickly, the games were still quite soft, and one would think that all of a sudden the posters who came here to discuss strategy was 80% winner + random lurker. This was not at all the case. I would estimate that at most 10% of the community was winning players, and even sitting at a table at 9/18 at Commerce, it was common for poeple to talk about 2+2, Sklansky, and other hero-authors while playing each other. You know what? The games were still soft.

Then along comes Harrington on Hold'em. once again, revolutionized NL Tournaments. Oh, no everyone cried: "All my money is not going to be so easy anymore." Tournament popularity exploded, the games got soft, and people made a ton of money.

Mathematics of Poker came along, and alas, an excellent book that anyone who read it will become the next <insert favorite poker star> and yet again... tons of readers and a crap load of bad games to pick from.

Then the forums here at two plus two started to crack under the same thinking, and good players started giving not-so-good advice, and a few excellent players stopped posting strat entirely (durrrr, anyone?) all over the fear of making the games tougher.

The whole idea is incorrect, the assertion fallacious, and the implementation of "create bad advice to ensure +ev" moronic at best. As knowledge spread, the games became more popular, and ironically, softer. Why?

Good advice is only as good as the person implementing it. Someone reads something somewhere and all of a sudden they found their next Big Leak, the key to crushing. That evening, they deposit their money and off into the ether of someone's pockets it goes. The point is that good advice encourages bad players to play even more. Sure, one small element of their game may have improved, but my personal observation has shown this to not be true at all: most of the time, the new concept is so poorly used that they were better off just deciding to play 100% VPIP and blindly click bet, call, fold.

Giving good advice should never once be a concern for a good player, because that good advice is almost always mis-used, plus that good advice causes the bad player to think they are improving, and they are just running unlucky because they know all of the concepts and they know they are more hard working than the stupid donkey who miraculously sucked out after the idiot shoved with 17 outs on the flop and our hero soul-read called with bottom pair.

Bad advice? Even bad players generally know bad advice is bad advice, at least to the level of bad generally seen on this particular sub-forum, and if anything, the bad player is now discouraged from playing further because there is nowhere to go for that magic pill to stardom and riches. Games dry up, and no one posts questions but regulars. People post bad advice becuase there are only regs, and the cycle resets, sqeezing the games harder.

I haven't posted in this strat forum yet, nor have I ever planned to. I used to post in HU forum when it was HUSNG and HUNL combined, before the split. Almost immediately after the split, both of the subforums collapsed into something I didn't want to be a part of anymore and for the most part, I never saw much improvement. I browse through here once in a while, but overall, it is a terrible forum. I don't think that it needs to be shut down. Years ago, there were a few bad subforums on this site. Good players move up, then all that's left are bad players or mid-stake trolls <- this is the total opposite of how it used to be, but I won't wax to poetic about this. The point is that all the subforums have went through cycles of good / bad / meh / good / bad / meh / / / etc, and usually a thread like this causes the needed tidal shifts.

[wyvo]

If people are Guna write essay's please cliff them