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dubious triple barrel spot dubious triple barrel spot

09-22-2015 , 01:15 AM
U.S. facing site, all players anonymous, not playing with HUD ATM. Stats listed are reflective of all hands played with Villain during session, not hands played up until this hand.

$2 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): $258.00
SB: $334.55 (VPIP: 58.82, PFR: 58.82, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 18)

SB posts SB $1.00, Hero posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has Q T

SB raises to $6.00, Hero raises to $18.00, SB calls $12.00

Flop: ($36.00, 2 players) K 8 A
Hero bets $18.00, SB calls $18.00

Turn: ($72.00, 2 players) 2
Hero bets $44.00, SB calls $44.00

River: ($160.00, 2 players) 2
Hero bets $178.00 and is all-in, SB calls $178.00

Figured I have one of only a few bluffs on this run-out so seemed like a decent barrel off? Is this just spewy on 2c and fine on all other club rivers (except Ac)?

Should I just be c/f turn with this low equity combo and save my barreling for f draws only?

Thx.

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PokerStars - $2 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $209.50 (VPIP: 68.25, PFR: 50.79, 3Bet Preflop: 10.34, Hands: 68)
Hero (BB): $349.00

SB posts SB $1.00, Hero posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has Q K

SB raises to $6.00, Hero raises to $18.00, SB calls $12.00

Flop: ($36.00, 2 players) 7 4 2
Hero bets $14.00, SB calls $14.00

Turn: ($64.00, 2 players) A
Hero bets $30.00, SB calls $30.00

River: ($124.00, 2 players) A
Hero bets $287.00 and is all-in

This one seems better eh? We have spade blocker and can fold out 7x, 88-JJ, weak Ax?

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PokerStars - $2 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): $200.50
SB: $206.00 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 100.00, 3Bet Preflop: 100.00, Hands: 4)

SB posts SB $1.00, Hero posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has 9 8

SB raises to $6.00, Hero calls $4.00

Flop: ($12.00, 2 players) 6 7 Q
Hero checks, SB bets $8.00, Hero raises to $26.00, SB calls $18.00

Turn: ($64.00, 2 players) 3
Hero bets $42.00, SB calls $42.00

River: ($148.00, 2 players) 9
Hero bets $126.50 and is all-in

Figured this run-out was fairly good for me w/54 combos coming in ott and T8 coming in otr, thoughts?

Last edited by RalphWaldoEmerson; 09-22-2015 at 01:29 AM.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-22-2015 , 05:57 PM
all your turn bets seem to have little purpuse other than bloating up the pot.

that is my first impression.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-22-2015 , 09:52 PM
fine w/ appropriate frequencies
fine w/ appropriate frequencies
fine w/ appropriate frequencies
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-22-2015 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami
fine w/ appropriate frequencies
fine w/ appropriate frequencies
fine w/ appropriate frequencies
right...the thing is it's an anonymous site so you're playing everything pretty much in a vacuum, it's all feel in the moment
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-22-2015 , 11:49 PM
what is fine in the second hand betting that 30$ ott?

it accomplishes a hole lot of nothing imo.

i would go much larger or just check.

also you notice the kickers are counterfitted in the river in hand one?
really any ace will call the river.

edit: he might fold his ace, but i guess alot of people will look you up.

that QT hand is a double barrel for me, and i go much bigger on the turn, and if he calls that my mission is over.

edit2: also that straightdraw in hand 3 is a much better candidat for a double c/r imo, that 3 wont change his mind, and you might get shoved of your hand from 85 and other stuff. i dont mind river though, as if you are good he might bluff himself.

Last edited by spewmachine; 09-22-2015 at 11:58 PM.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson
right...the thing is it's an anonymous site so you're playing everything pretty much in a vacuum, it's all feel in the moment
Or you could have, ya know, like an overall strategy
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 03:00 PM
1.) I dont think that we should be bluffing one of the worst river cards.

2.) villain will prob have more Ax combos than 7x, 88-JJ. I wouldn't bluff this runout.

3.) I like it. Two straights get there and we can have plenty of two pr+ hands
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BatDoge
Or you could have, ya know, like an overall strategy
what do you mean? the overall strategy is just purely exploitative, because you only have a limited sample of hands with each player, and population tendencies even among regs is far from GTO. you're obviously just making decisions on the fly. having some sort of one-size-fits-all strategy is clearly bad.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson
having some sort of one-size-fits-all strategy is clearly bad.
It's not, because when you don't have it and when you don't know what your opponent's specific leaks are in the specific spot that comes up, you're just clicking buttons. Either that or rationalizing guesses to yourself with poker's equivalent of horoscopes -- "game flow". One great thing about learning a default strategy is it teaches you what reasonable defaults are, how far your opponent's strategies have to deviate before you deviate from the defaults, etc. E.g. the spot in this thread would be pretty trivial if you had that worked out.

Anyway, would suggest you work with CREV or any combo-counting utility, and calculate river EVs based on various assumptions. "Villain gets to the river with and such range --> calls my jam with [this hand] or better --> I get a fold x% of the time with this hand, so a bluff is [good / bad]". You can calculate the turn similarly, although it's more complex. Play around with various sets of assumptions. That's how you can learn something from these spots. I'm not sure how this thread can help you unless someone wants to do your HW for you, and no one will want to do that ofc.

Last edited by Rei Ayanami; 09-23-2015 at 04:09 PM.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson
what do you mean? the overall strategy is just purely exploitative, because you only have a limited sample of hands with each player, and population tendencies even among regs is far from GTO. you're obviously just making decisions on the fly. having some sort of one-size-fits-all strategy is clearly bad.
i think haveing some good gameplan will help you when you tilt or just started a session.

everytime you autopilot you need a good overal strategy, so you dont make really big mistakes because your senses were off guard.

that KQ hand for instance is just shooting in the dark.

what hands are you trying to fold out on the turn? and setting up a rivershove on such a drawy board is a highvarianceplay at best.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami
Anyway, would suggest you work with CREV or any combo-counting utility, and calculate river EVs based on various assumptions. "Villain gets to the river with and such range --> calls my jam with [this hand] or better --> I get a fold x% of the time with this hand, so a bluff is [good / bad]". You can calculate the turn similarly, although it's more complex. Play around with various sets of assumptions. That's how you can learn something from these spots. I'm not sure how this thread can help you unless someone wants to do your HW for you, and no one will want to do that ofc.


For real, that's probably the best advice you'll ever get.

Or just pay someone xxx/hr to spoonfeed you, hoping you memorize enough common spots to do okay in the games

Last edited by BatDoge; 09-23-2015 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Coaching jab is not at you specifically
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-23-2015 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami
It's not, because when you don't have it and when you don't know what your opponent's specific leaks are in the specific spot that comes up, you're just clicking buttons. Either that or rationalizing guesses to yourself with poker's equivalent of horoscopes -- "game flow". One great thing about learning a default strategy is it teaches you what reasonable defaults are, how far your opponent's strategies have to deviate before you deviate from the defaults, etc. E.g. the spot in this thread would be pretty trivial if you had that worked out.

Anyway, would suggest you work with CREV or any combo-counting utility, and calculate river EVs based on various assumptions. "Villain gets to the river with and such range --> calls my jam with [this hand] or better --> I get a fold x% of the time with this hand, so a bluff is [good / bad]". You can calculate the turn similarly, although it's more complex. Play around with various sets of assumptions. That's how you can learn something from these spots. I'm not sure how this thread can help you unless someone wants to do your HW for you, and no one will want to do that ofc.
You're absolutely right, I mean obviously the solution to poker in 2015 is to spend 12 hours a day working with CREV . And working with default strategies will undoubtedly help me approach these spots. But it's over-the-top to say there's no point in posting threads here. Part of the challenge of constructing ranges for CREV is understanding the logic of why to take certain lines with certain hands. For instance a post like this gives me some ideas about how others are ranging Villain and introduces me to things I may not have considered:

Quote:
Originally Posted by WowLucky
1.) I dont think that we should be bluffing one of the worst river cards.

2.) villain will prob have more Ax combos than 7x, 88-JJ. I wouldn't bluff this runout.

3.) I like it. Two straights get there and we can have plenty of two pr+ hands
So I don't get the point of posting "fine w/appropriate frequencies" as if that's not obvious to me. You're not obligated to respond to threads that you don't feel fit your level of expertise and/or experience, but that doesn't mean other people can't benefit from them. In the meantime, basically what you're telling me is "you need to get poker at poker", which I already know .
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-24-2015 , 04:02 AM
i was the only one replying in detail and you didnt answer, so what you want?

an overal discussion can be found in poker theory, there are 100000000 threads about gameflow vs GTO

an overall strat is something most people **** so hard up on that you can ignore gameflow and play your overall strat.

also you never know what your opponent thinks, you just play this game with yourself more often than not.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-24-2015 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine
i was the only one replying in detail and you didnt answer, so what you want?
sorry? I do read over all of the comments. I was a bit confused by some things you said, namely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine
all your turn bets seem to have little purpuse other than bloating up the pot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spewmachine
that QT hand is a double barrel for me, and i go much bigger on the turn
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-24-2015 , 05:44 PM
barreling off with your boradwaygutshots is a thing i personlly dont do everytime.

if i bet the turn i make sure he will fold out all Kx hands (thats why i go large), and i dont try to get him off Ax without knowing my opponent

and as i said he is propably just folding his pure floats on that A in the KQ hand for 30$

if you want him to fold his minordraws or a pair you need to bet 55$.

in the third hand your turnbet is propably profitable, although it dosnt do much.

edit: as he propably wont fold his flushdraws in hand 1 and will slowplay that board, the turnbet might not be profitable without the riverbet. at least it doesnt has much ev. thats often the case when you barrel a broadwaygutshot and the reason i dont do it often.

Last edited by spewmachine; 09-24-2015 at 05:54 PM.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-24-2015 , 07:48 PM
all those hand are spewy, you seem to have "nobody's bluffing those spots, so imma bluff it" approach, which is usually wrong. Nobody's bluffing those spots for a reason.
dubious triple barrel spot Quote
09-26-2015 , 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutejszy
all those hand are spewy, you seem to have "nobody's bluffing those spots, so imma bluff it" approach, which is usually wrong. Nobody's bluffing those spots for a reason.
Pretty much this. In practical terms they are probably spew except 3 which is close.

On the third, even if you're going for pseudo optimal you probably shouldn't be forced to turn anything with any potential ex-showdown equity (is this slightly modified version of ex-showdown value still fashionable enough to type?) into a bluff. If you are your range construction is probably slightly off.

Last edited by JudgeHoldem1848; 09-26-2015 at 12:37 AM. Reason: beer
dubious triple barrel spot Quote

      
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