on zoom im often not sure how to react to an unknown 3-betting like 4.5x my minopen or 4-bet 3x to my 3-bet.

i pretty much think i should raise or fold most of my range, which will lead to a very defined (and therfor vulnerable) calling range

if i bluffshove against such an unknown makeing a huge 4-bet it seems like so random and bad, but also folding so much seems bad.

unsure what a gto strat should be against such exploitable plays (as raising that big cant be good) you dont know the range of befor makeing alot of mistakes.

For instance the guy makeing that large raises could be some superlag or some supernit.

sit out

You are wrong about this.

Playing predominantly 4b-or-fold to 2-9 3bs is enough on its lonesome to make you a fish.

sizing you described are just a little bigger than standard, let me guess, you've learned how to 3bet by clicking a "pot" button?

alright i was exaggerating, i call some hands.

but do you think a 2-9 3bs is a good strat against an unknown?

It depends on the player pool. It's a naturally good "pre-adjustment" if people tend to call too much against 3-bets, for instance.

2 -> 7/8 is standard, and the fact is that 2 -> 9 is small enough of a change that even if we presuppose 2 -> 7/8 is "ideal", then 2 -> 9 is going to be a slight mistake at worst.

Whether 4-betting 3x your 3-bet is bad depends on the size of your 3-bets and the SPR. Like, at 2 -> 7 -> 21 (100 deep here and henceforth), it's clearly fine, but at 3 -> 10.5 -> 31.5, I don't like it at all, because it makes play for the BB easier -- although it can be fine against people who haven't faced it before and don't naturally hit upon the correct response. Anyway, I've already "hinted at" too much, maybe, so let's leave it at that.

I think this is interesting - Ed Miller mentions this in "Small Stakes No Limit Hold'em"; the 4 bet to 31.5 pot commits even your 4 bet bluffs; whereas a raise to like 25 would be much less comfortable decision for your opponent, lets you get away from 97s and is still threatening stax.

As a fish trying to get better, I appreciate you sharing. I like the mentality of some excellent players that worse players need to be able to educate themselves and get better in order to keep playing and keep poker healthy. Also, being good at poker is a lot of work! even if you give all the advice you have (aside from like your own ranges and HHs); you aren't going to make a bunch of sharks who can really fight back, for the most part you'll just make slightly better informed fish (who will often still misapply what they've learned).

This isn't correct. 68.5/200 (that's after a 4-bet to 31.5 bb at 100 bb stacks) = 34.25% equity needed to call a shove. 4-bet bluffs won't have that much equity against 5b ranges until the BB starts adding bluffshoves. After a 4-bet to 25 bb, it's 75/200 = 37.5%, which isn't miles different or anything. The BTN will be "committed" at closer to 50 bb. Either way, 4-bets of that size won't be a problem for the BB at all -- the BTN gains nothing from committing himself with his 4-bet bluffs.

i think its a huge deal.

you gain 1 BB less if i fold at a 3bet of 2-9 as to a 3-bet 3-9 and im not forced to make a lot of marginal calls that i would if had gotten better odds.

also i can 4-bet slightly smaller against 2-9 as to 3-9 as he will be getting worse odds.

you will end up against a more stronger range oop, not sure why you would ever want that.


a big 4-bet i will have a shove or fold decision against is basically wasting the power of position. for me that are pretty dumb strategies, but whatever.

When you hold them aces, just go all in because they will think its weak and you won't have aces, know?

just dont get it when regs openshove 200 BB at me.

still wait for an opportunity to pick them off at zoom.

i hope that doesnt happen to me whe i hold KK

you could've rly improved by this thread, gl with your KK

I'm still waiting for a "reg" to open-shove 200 bb

hey no need to nitpick, i worked with the information i got out of this thread already.

for one example i found out that i dont make a big mistake folding a lot against huge 4-bets, it helps me 3-bet/jam my small pockets instead.

find hands that play better post flop and continues, as for 4b shoving, your letting your opponents off easy as they will play better vs that range pre and post.