Something I have been encountering more and more recently is people flatting 4 bets pre-flop out of position 100bb deep. I was just wondering the standard line you guys would take on the flop against a villain that does this on a regular basis.

For arguments sake lets just assume hero has opened for $3, villain 3 bets to $10, hero 4 bets to $25, villain calls...

My standard line is to bet somewhere in the region of 1/4 to 1/3 pot on most flops, I find this to be relatively effective as if I have whiffed with AK type hands or a bluff it keeps it cheap and at the same time can induce a c/r for when I have the goods. I will occasionally check back ace high flops for deception, and sometimes (rarely) give up on particularly coordinated gross boards vs some opponents.

Does anyone take a significantly different line that they find effective? How often (and on what board textures) are we checking behind on the flop? How should our bet sizing/action differ vs different opponents? Lastly, if we are up against a villain who habitually flats 4 bets, how does this effect our 4 betting range and frequency, and our play on the flop?

Any criticism/advice/discussion would be appreciated.

Thanks

Interesting, I would also be keen to hear people's thoughts on this.

People usually flat a 4bet with like TT, AJ, KQ, sometimes AQ. A and Q are prolly the most dangerous cards that can come on the flop. A jack high flop is usually the best to bluff.

where did you get this from? people flat 4bets with all sorts of suited connectors and low pairs, these are the types of hands i see least often.

+1 I see a super-wide range and it is usually from bad players. All pocket pairs + suited 1 and 2 gappers in addition to the hands Gugel mentioned.

4bet pots is very player dependent. the first thing you should ask yourself is how often he is flatting your 4bets. if it isn't that often then there is no need to balance your range. he isn't going to see enough situations in where he will be "wow he does this with air and also AA here". But if he flats 4bets often then you are going to want to balance, and what you stated is pretty spot on.

Another thing you have to know is what kind of hands he is flatting it with. If there is a spot where he has a weakish made hand, but since he committed so much money he has to call, then your going to want to be betting according to your hand strength (big with a hand, small or check without a hand)

People flatting 4bets is one of the most profitable spots because it usually is small to medium pairs that will fold to one bet. I like cbetting even with hands with weak show down value (AK or whatever) since you will get better to fold so often. And remember to cbet small (half or 2/5 pot or so) since you will threaten their stack with any bet.

Gentlemen, I was very wrong - my bad. I analyzed the hands in my database and I'd like to share my results with you guys. In the 170k hands I've played in HU, villains called my 4bet and we got to showdown 153 times.

Top 10 Hands Villain Showed Up With:
AJ: 13
AQ: 7
KJ: 7
KQ: 6
TT: 6
AA: 5
88: 4
99: 4
AK: 4
AT: 4

oh well, guess no link to the post I wrote (it took quite a bit of time to analyze the data). PM me if interested.

Haha you must have been sarcasttic saying you were very wrong...since the hands you mentioned were all at the top of your 170k sample!

Guys, what we doing after villian call 4bet (we have AK) flop 4 6 9.
1.We cbet 1/3 - 1/2, and villian shoove? Stacks 100bb, 150bb, 200bb
2.We cbet and villian call, what we doing on turn?

guys, ask pls

Gugel, your hands all line up with your perception but your data has to be at least somewhat skewed. You are more likely to see the top of villains range because you only get to see villains hand when he shows down, all the times you cbet and he folds aren't included in your sample.

you must be playing only nits Gugel, because ive played only about 11k hands of 100NL HU and I've seen people call my 4-bets and get to showdown with T6s, 43o and J9s

Also have you tried classing hands? Suited connectors and gappers are going to be less likely to show up as individual hands because there are just more of them so the occurrence of each individual one is less likely.

BTW I am not trying to argue with you so much as help solve the problem. Your article was definitely a good start, I enjoyed it and wish you could post it here so other players could build on it.