On the flop... I can see a case for both. It was a pretty aggressive player on super tilt, however I feel like a small 30-40 bet would look even more suspicious considering the size of the pot and what he had left. I also felt like, due to stacks, any hand he would call the 4 bet with, he would call on flop regardless of an Ace popping up. opinions?
Last edited by TooCuriousso1; 07-04-2012 at 03:18 PM.
Great play by both of you. Why you 4bet so big? Bet smaller and small flopbet. You don't achieve anything by shoving this flop.
I have played against you and you ranted about your millions of heads up hands and still don't know basic stuff, wtf...
I 4 bet that big because his fold to 4 bet was 0%. Btw I know I probably trash talked you and that's why you are bitter. Don't take it personal, I was probably just trying to get you on tilt.
If you suspect a good player would play an A differently, then wouldn't a shove just throw him off?
I 4 bet that big because his fold to 4 bet was 0%. Btw I know I probably trash talked you and that's why you are bitter. Don't take it personal, I was probably just trying to get you on tilt.
I've played hands like this with a small bet easily as many times as I've shoved. This guy was on úber tilt and his fold to c bets waw 11% in total. Yes only 11%.. I could get him all in almost every single hand. I liked my shove.
If someone shoves on this flop, what would you put him on? An A? If you suspect a good player would play an A differently, then why would he shove with it?
Ok, no problems.
Even if his fold to 4bet was 0, i don't like betting this much. What do you do if flop comes 68K or something? checkfolding seems too weak, but you can't really even cbet-fold. Why don't just 4bet all-in on preflop if you think he can't fold anything.
I think hand is played wrong if you have to make a thread on forum when players have Ax with good kicker on 100bb deep 4bet pot and don't know what to do.
But gg gl.
Last edited by Pokerman1992; 06-27-2012 at 05:37 AM.
Even if his fold to 4bet was 0, i don't like betting this much. What do you do if flop comes 68K or something? checkfolding seems too weak, but you can't really even cbet-fold. Why don't just 4bet all-in on preflop if you think he can't fold anything.
I was trying to make the 4 bet big enough that he would be committed on the flop. I had planned on shoving most flops (a few exceptions. a "k" would be the last card I would want to see obviously). I thought about making the 4 bet even bigger as he had called a 4 bet previously for 77$ with 88 in hand.
His 3 bet was 38% at this point and he was super tilted
I think hand is played wrong if you have to make a thread on forum when players have Ax with good kicker on 100bb deep 4bet pot and don't know what to do.
I made the thread because a friend of mine disagreed with my play. I think it can be played both ways. I usually make a bet that allows him to come over the top, but in this case he was so insanely tilted and in super calling mode I just went ahead and shoved it
I would check back the flop. If he has an ace you're stacking him anyway with one pot left. By shoving you deny him the opportunity to bluff with hands that have almost no equity, which there should be many of. Any worse hand he's calling your shove with you are still able to get it in with later on. You also protect your otherwise face up check back range. It's not like you have a bluffing range here either.
We managed to split one psb in a similar spot into 4 bets today. like $15 cbet, minraise, call, turn bet and river bet. Jamming flop is an extremely big mistake actually unless you think he calls Qhi.
I think the crucial point here is actually how often he is 3 betting, if for example he is 3 betting like 2% of hands then never folding to 4bets doesnt justify 4 betting a range larger than villain's 3 bet distribution.
..if however villain is 3betting relentlessly which i assume is the case then this is a great spot to 4 bet and overbet shove the flop. You gain massive EV from villain calling overbets and shoves as an underdog, i strongly disagree with those that believe this isn't a good play, it is perhaps a higher variance play but one that is very credible.
The gap concept does not apply given the likely metagame of this match, villain could easily be calling a weaker ace on this board, its so unlikely he is flatting a large 4 bet w ak, the possibilities of villains range are heavily weighted towards weaker aces (although aa some of the time in my experience) all of which he is probably calling a shove w due to metagame. All in all, i like this line in this particular situation.
So you saying villains range is only worse Ax that calls 4bet! This is totally wrong
It's more weighted towards KQ KJ JQ 10J type hands that we allow to play perfectly by jamming!
I think the crucial point here is actually how often he is 3 betting, if for example he is 3 betting like 2% of hands then never folding to 4bets doesnt justify 4 betting a range larger than villain's 3 bet distribution.
..if however villain is 3betting relentlessly which i assume is the case then this is a great spot to 4 bet and overbet shove the flop. You gain massive EV from villain calling overbets and shoves as an underdog, i strongly disagree with those that believe this isn't a good play, it is perhaps a higher variance play but one that is very credible.
The gap concept does not apply given the likely metagame of this match, villain could easily be calling a weaker ace on this board, its so unlikely he is flatting a large 4 bet w ak, the possibilities of villains range are heavily weighted towards weaker aces (although aa some of the time in my experience) all of which he is probably calling a shove w due to metagame. All in all, i like this line in this particular situation.
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