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Old 06-27-2012, 02:32 AM   #1
Darkeonz
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200NL shove or small bet?

    Poker Stars, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 2 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13347342

    Hero (SB): $820.08 (410 bb)
    BB: $205 (102.5 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with A Q
    Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $21, Hero raises to $66, BB calls $45

    Flop: ($132) 3 A 2 (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $754.08 and is all-in, BB calls $139 and is all-in

    Turn: ($410.00) 9 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: ($410.00) T (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.


    On the flop... I can see a case for both. It was a pretty aggressive player on super tilt, however I feel like a small 30-40 bet would look even more suspicious considering the size of the pot and what he had left. I also felt like, due to stacks, any hand he would call the 4 bet with, he would call on flop regardless of an Ace popping up. opinions?

    Last edited by TooCuriousso1; 07-04-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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    Old 06-27-2012, 04:54 AM   #2
    Pokerman1992
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    Great play by both of you. Why you 4bet so big? Bet smaller and small flopbet. You don't achieve anything by shoving this flop.

    I have played against you and you ranted about your millions of heads up hands and still don't know basic stuff, wtf...
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    Old 06-27-2012, 05:09 AM   #3
    Darkeonz
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pokerman1992 View Post
    Great play by both of you. Why you 4bet so big? Bet smaller and small flopbet. You don't achieve anything by shoving this flop.

    I have played against you and you ranted about your millions of heads up hands and still don't know basic stuff, wtf...
    I 4 bet that big because his fold to 4 bet was 0%. Btw I know I probably trash talked you and that's why you are bitter. Don't take it personal, I was probably just trying to get you on tilt.

    If you suspect a good player would play an A differently, then wouldn't a shove just throw him off?

    Last edited by Darkeonz; 06-27-2012 at 05:30 AM.
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    Old 06-27-2012, 05:32 AM   #4
    Pokerman1992
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Darkeonz View Post
    I 4 bet that big because his fold to 4 bet was 0%. Btw I know I probably trash talked you and that's why you are bitter. Don't take it personal, I was probably just trying to get you on tilt.

    I've played hands like this with a small bet easily as many times as I've shoved. This guy was on úber tilt and his fold to c bets waw 11% in total. Yes only 11%.. I could get him all in almost every single hand. I liked my shove.

    If someone shoves on this flop, what would you put him on? An A? If you suspect a good player would play an A differently, then why would he shove with it?
    Ok, no problems.

    Even if his fold to 4bet was 0, i don't like betting this much. What do you do if flop comes 68K or something? checkfolding seems too weak, but you can't really even cbet-fold. Why don't just 4bet all-in on preflop if you think he can't fold anything.

    I think hand is played wrong if you have to make a thread on forum when players have Ax with good kicker on 100bb deep 4bet pot and don't know what to do.

    But gg gl.

    Last edited by Pokerman1992; 06-27-2012 at 05:37 AM.
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    Old 06-27-2012, 05:38 AM   #5
    Darkeonz
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pokerman1992 View Post
    Ok, no problems.

    Even if his fold to 4bet was 0, i don't like betting this much. What do you do if flop comes 68K or something? checkfolding seems too weak, but you can't really even cbet-fold. Why don't just 4bet all-in on preflop if you think he can't fold anything.
    I was trying to make the 4 bet big enough that he would be committed on the flop. I had planned on shoving most flops (a few exceptions. a "k" would be the last card I would want to see obviously). I thought about making the 4 bet even bigger as he had called a 4 bet previously for 77$ with 88 in hand.

    His 3 bet was 38% at this point and he was super tilted
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    Old 06-27-2012, 05:40 AM   #6
    Darkeonz
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pokerman1992 View Post
    I think hand is played wrong if you have to make a thread on forum when players have Ax with good kicker on 100bb deep 4bet pot and don't know what to do.
    I made the thread because a friend of mine disagreed with my play. I think it can be played both ways. I usually make a bet that allows him to come over the top, but in this case he was so insanely tilted and in super calling mode I just went ahead and shoved it
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    Old 06-27-2012, 06:47 AM   #7
    DonkeyFishFight
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    I would check back the flop. If he has an ace you're stacking him anyway with one pot left. By shoving you deny him the opportunity to bluff with hands that have almost no equity, which there should be many of. Any worse hand he's calling your shove with you are still able to get it in with later on. You also protect your otherwise face up check back range. It's not like you have a bluffing range here either.
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    Old 06-27-2012, 07:26 AM   #8
    Khal Drogo
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    Tbh, I think the only bad option is shoving.
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    Old 06-27-2012, 07:58 AM   #9
    wyvo
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    well i think betting 60-70 is actually worse then shoving

    for me it would go:

    Bet small>>Check>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>Bet 1/2 or 3/4 Pot
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    Old 06-27-2012, 05:51 PM   #10
    samooth
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    4bet shove pre.
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    Old 07-03-2012, 08:53 PM   #11
    hmetsfan11
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    Re: shove or small bet?

    I have no problem getting it all in pre here but waiting for the flop is probably the play of choice
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    Old 07-05-2012, 03:51 AM   #12
    lnternet
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    We managed to split one psb in a similar spot into 4 bets today. like $15 cbet, minraise, call, turn bet and river bet. Jamming flop is an extremely big mistake actually unless you think he calls Qhi.
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    Old 07-09-2012, 08:42 PM   #13
    DREAMS_DONT_DIE
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    I think the crucial point here is actually how often he is 3 betting, if for example he is 3 betting like 2% of hands then never folding to 4bets doesnt justify 4 betting a range larger than villain's 3 bet distribution.

    ..if however villain is 3betting relentlessly which i assume is the case then this is a great spot to 4 bet and overbet shove the flop. You gain massive EV from villain calling overbets and shoves as an underdog, i strongly disagree with those that believe this isn't a good play, it is perhaps a higher variance play but one that is very credible.

    The gap concept does not apply given the likely metagame of this match, villain could easily be calling a weaker ace on this board, its so unlikely he is flatting a large 4 bet w ak, the possibilities of villains range are heavily weighted towards weaker aces (although aa some of the time in my experience) all of which he is probably calling a shove w due to metagame. All in all, i like this line in this particular situation.
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    Old 07-10-2012, 03:14 AM   #14
    wyvo
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    So you saying villains range is only worse Ax that calls 4bet! This is totally wrong
    It's more weighted towards KQ KJ JQ 10J type hands that we allow to play perfectly by jamming!
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    Old 07-10-2012, 04:32 AM   #15
    mjifi
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DREAMS_DONT_DIE View Post
    I think the crucial point here is actually how often he is 3 betting, if for example he is 3 betting like 2% of hands then never folding to 4bets doesnt justify 4 betting a range larger than villain's 3 bet distribution.

    ..if however villain is 3betting relentlessly which i assume is the case then this is a great spot to 4 bet and overbet shove the flop. You gain massive EV from villain calling overbets and shoves as an underdog, i strongly disagree with those that believe this isn't a good play, it is perhaps a higher variance play but one that is very credible.

    The gap concept does not apply given the likely metagame of this match, villain could easily be calling a weaker ace on this board, its so unlikely he is flatting a large 4 bet w ak, the possibilities of villains range are heavily weighted towards weaker aces (although aa some of the time in my experience) all of which he is probably calling a shove w due to metagame. All in all, i like this line in this particular situation.
    haha, this is amazing, keep it up
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    Old 07-10-2012, 08:41 AM   #16
    DREAMS_DONT_DIE
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wyvo View Post
    So you saying villains range is only worse Ax that calls 4bet! This is totally wrong
    It's more weighted towards KQ KJ JQ 10J type hands that we allow to play perfectly by jamming!
    I cant even be bothered to address this, shoving aq and 'planning' to get called by 10 j just tells me how retarded you are...

    thanks mjifi, appreciated.
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    Old 07-10-2012, 08:58 AM   #17
    alexuuus
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DREAMS_DONT_DIE View Post
    I cant even be bothered to address this, shoving aq and 'planning' to get called by 10 j just tells me how retarded you are...
    or you simply dont understand, what he is trying to say you cauz ...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DREAMS_DONT_DIE View Post
    thanks mjifi, appreciated.
    Spoiler:
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    Old 07-10-2012, 10:14 AM   #18
    samooth
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    lol
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    Old 07-10-2012, 12:13 PM   #19
    DREAMS_DONT_DIE
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    i understand more than you could possibly imagine which is why i play as high as nl5k and most of u lot 'grind' hoping to be profitable at nl400 , fronting that ur a sick bre, when ur actually living in ur mother's basement

    Last edited by DREAMS_DONT_DIE; 07-10-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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    Old 07-10-2012, 12:17 PM   #20
    BreakYaNeck
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DREAMS_DONT_DIE View Post
    i understand more than you could possibly imagine
    No you dont. Not even close.
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    Old 07-10-2012, 12:23 PM   #21
    DREAMS_DONT_DIE
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
    No you dont. Not even close.
    u can keep clicking refresh but it wont make ur **** any bigger m8
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    Old 07-10-2012, 12:39 PM   #22
    BreakYaNeck
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DREAMS_DONT_DIE View Post
    u can keep clicking refresh but it wont make ur **** any bigger m8
    Lol your the only one getting defensive. This is a forum where people can post their comments and criticize others. You gave advice that people did not agree with( I didnt either) and now you cant take the criticism. Sounds like someone is a bit insecure.
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    Old 07-10-2012, 06:32 PM   #23
    DREAMS_DONT_DIE
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
    Lol your the only one getting defensive. This is a forum where people can post their comments and criticize others. You gave advice that people did not agree with( I didnt either) and now you cant take the criticism. Sounds like someone is a bit insecure.
    Nah its kl, my bank balance makes it impossible for me 2 get insecure.. ive got heart and dedication to the game so reading socially awkward yanks whos favourite hobby is golf, talking nitty poker thinking their 2 sick is a bit tilting
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    Old 07-10-2012, 07:42 PM   #24
    CubKiller
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DREAMS_DONT_DIE View Post
    Nah its kl, my bank balance makes it impossible for me 2 get insecure.. ive got heart and dedication to the game so reading socially awkward yanks whos favourite hobby is golf, talking nitty poker thinking their 2 sick is a bit tilting
    [x] busto.
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    Old 07-10-2012, 08:54 PM   #25
    DREAMS_DONT_DIE
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    Re: 200NL shove or small bet?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CubKiller View Post
    [x] busto.
    LMAO, my watch is worth more than ur bankroll m8
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