Actually going to be going to Phoenix in May and would also be interested in any pertinent information (never played in AZ). Are the clubs real underground clubs? Safety/Scamming an issue? Im used to completely legal in all it's glory LA poker. So I'm curious as to what I can expect from an underground club...

Don't any of you ppl worry about a crew coming thru the door w/ shotguns? It seems to me that they'd have to figure to net at least $3-4K and in/out quick. I played once at that place on Scottsdale Rd. and haven't felt so unsafe in years.

This really is not the place to talk about precautions, but let's just they are in place.

I am really no more or no less "comfortable" inside the club I play at than I am when I am staying at the Wynn and walking to the V. Or walking from CAZ to my car.

Well I think walking from CAZ's door to your car is a little different. I think people should take precautions when playing at card rooms with little security as opposed to a casino.

You have a chance of getting robbed at either place, but I would think it could be more likely to happen at a social poker room.

Im not so much worried about some people with shotguns as I am some crazy mother****er taking out a gun after a bad beat. Because I play for pot/implied odds that most donks don't understand, I get plenty of pissed off people at me.

I play with some shady creatures in LA (Commerce, Haw. Gard) but they give a somewhat decent appearance of security...I wonder how many of the players would shoot somebody after a gutshot that cost them $1500 if they felt they could get away with it...

Yeah, that is always in the back of my mind when a drunk player starts causing a scene and doesn't get thrown out.

Jesus Christ, does this strike anyone else as a red flag to avoid these places?

If someone is going to come rob my $200 buy in thats just a bad day same deal can happen to you at circle K when i am buying a 40 its the last thing i worry about in these places.

Do you ever bring more than one buyin or buy in for the max?

Also when the max buy-in is $400 and there are 2-3 tables going ($400x9)x 3 tables that can be upto $10k on the tables. This does not include people's money in their pockets for rebuys. The 1/2 games run with higher buy-ins on Saturday Nights with 2-3 tables sometimes four. There could easily be $20k to steal at one time. Sure each player can lose a minimum of $200, but there are other players with thousands of dollars on the table or in their pockets.

It is just something you should be aware of, I'm not saying the clubs are dangerous, just that people should at least consider the fact. And pay attention to your surroundings when playing at and leaving clubs.

I worried about safety when I first started playing at my poker club.......but it's actually nice that mine is so quiet and usually only one table going. There's never more than 1K out on the table, but I guess that's enough to make some people do some stupid things.......plus the money is locked in a safe in the back of the club, so it would be a huge issue to try to steal it. Also, the owner sometimes carries his handgun in full view on busy nights, but I guess that could just lead to a shoot out.

I'll work on starting a nice single spreadsheet-turned-image that I can host that has better updated info shortly, but a couple of interesting points along the way.

Yes, clearly in the cons of playing in a poker room in Arizona (of which I've only sat in 3 different ones now) is that there's always the possibility of someone taking a bad beat and then walking out to the car for his pistol.

I'm packing sometimes, so, it's not unreasonable. This is Arizona after all. It does take about 20 minutes to get a handgun (no, seriously, about 20 minutes). Caring concealed is only 8 hours of your time and under $100. I haven't seen a no firearms sign yet

Robbing a liquor store or restaurant seems ABOUT as easy. I'm more worried about an angry player than I am a robbery. The place gets robbed, I lose somewhere between a couple hundred bucks and a grand. Someone gets mad, I lose more than money.

All of this said, I've felt reasonably safe while playing. Everywhere I've been has had buzzers on the doors and/or multiple cameras, has been cleanly lit, etc. ...but not as safe as at the casino where robbing a table would be utter suicide.

I did have a guy take a bad beat recently (well, he was only 63-34 when he got in) from me, and shortly after losing the rest of his chips, he went to his car and cried. There's a fine line between going to your car to cry and going to your car to get a tire iron (or worse).

What exactly is the 5-150 game that is at casino arizona?

$350 Max Buy-In Spread Limit Poker. Blinds are $3.00/$5.00 ($1.00 is taken immediatly from the small blind for the jackpot drop).

Any single bet can not be larger than $150.00. You can bet or raise any amount between $5.00 - $150.00.

Pre Flop raises are between $20-$40.

I find it interesting that Christine notes the presence of the police in the parking lot. That raises a question in my mind--are these rooms legal? One risk not mentioned is of the place being busted and you either having all your money on the table confisacted and/or ending up with a minor criminal record.

well considering all these poker rooms are right out in the open and the justice system has chose to not go after them because it's not a game of chance, rather a game of skill..........I would say you're okay to play at any of them that have membership fees. The cops can't do anything about it and really don't care about it as far as I can see with this room and others.

you can read the law, but it appears that it isn't fully legal since the room makes money from the games and they charge a membership fee. Both things are pretty clearly not legal from what the AZ Dept. of Gaming says.

http://www.gm.state.az.us/TopGamingViolations.pdf

Edit: I'm guessing that just the owner of the poker room would be the one getting in trouble if someone was to enforce the laws.

it's definitely a touchy issue...but i don't really worry about it. If anyone ever gets busted or in trouble, I would assume it would be the people that own/work there, not the players......I WOULD ASSUME

Not that what I think matters, but I agree 100%. Their website says (bold/underline: mine):

And the Arizona Department of Gaming PDF says (bold/underline: mine):

There are pretty much two operational models for card rooms in Phoenix.

1. A dealer who owns or has an interest in the room who can make an hourly himself by taking only tips.
2. A house that takes a "not-a-rake, it's just some other fee we invented" and makes their money that way -- "paying" their dealers in tips.

The first mode is probably legal. The other...not so much.

IANAL.

Don't forget 1-prime: An owner who says "LAWLZ no rake just tip the dealer!" and then steals 60% of the tokes at the end of the night.

Sure, the other option for the no-rake only-tip business model is to be the owner and auction off the privilege of dealing, or suggest that it would be appropriate for your dealers to tip you.

I'm not so naive as to think dealers are working for tips and only tips, and that there's no backroom deal with money changing hands in some direction.

Those involved in it will vehemently deny it.

They have to

Thanks for the link. I am surprised that games of skill are illegal as well. That would mean I couldn't even open a chess club and charge participants for the use of the facilities. And I'm not really worried about being arrested but I would assume that if you were present when a poker club was raided all chips would be confiscated.

That PDF is the Department of Gaming's interpretation of the horribly-written "social gaming" law. I have not been secretive about how I run my club, where my revenue comes from, or anything. In fact, the opening of my club was mentioned on the front page of the Arizona Republic in June of 2008 before I opened. If the Attorney General wanted to pursue a case against me, he's had ample opportunity.

If playing poker (a skill game) for money isn't legal, then how do all these pool halls and bowling alleys play for money and get away with it?

By the way, "durango155" came and played at Poker Nation last weekend and made something like $200-$300 in profit in about 3-4 hours of playing, so I'll leave it up to you to decide why he's talking the way he is now.

Where is organized gambling on bowling taking place?

Edit: ...and just because it is an unenforced law (Social Gambling/Poker) doesn't mean that it is legal.

p.s. I'm done talking about the legality of these rooms. Although I hope the "laws" scare away the "good" players who read this forum.

Any number of bowling alleys across the state are hosting league tournaments for money. I should know - I was in a team that won money in a league two summers ago. We "bought in" weekly and paid the bowling center for hosting the game and some of the money went into the prize pool. We even had 50/50 raffles to build up the prize pool. No one questioned the legality of this, even though the 50/50 raffle was more "gambling" than anything else we were doing.

I'm sure that your interpretation of the law is better than ADoG's.

Of course, what you offer ISN'T social gambling. We know this because of a quick look at ARS 13-3301. To qualify as social gambling, you have to meet a number of criteria, of which the following is included:

"No other person receives or becomes entitled to receive any benefit, directly or indirectly, from the gambling activity, including benefits of proprietorship."

Are you the proprietor? Do you make money (benefit) from this venture? Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.

The good news is that 12-3302 and 3304 spell out that being a PLAYER in a social game is fine. The bad news is that if you're playing somewhere that's making money off you -- you're not playing in a social game. <frownie face>

So, here's 13-3301 section 7 in its entirety, for the legal nits among you:

7. "Social gambling" means gambling that is not conducted as a business and that involves players who compete on equal terms with each other in a gamble if all of the following apply:

• (a) No player receives, or becomes entitled to receive, any benefit, directly or indirectly, other than the player's winnings from the gamble.
• (b) No other person receives or becomes entitled to receive any benefit, directly or indirectly, from the gambling activity, including benefits of proprietorship, management or unequal advantage or odds in a series of gambles.
• (c) Until June 1, 2003, none of the players is below the age of majority. Beginning on June 1, 2003, none of the players is under twenty-one years of age.
• (d) Players "compete on equal terms with each other in a gamble" when no player enjoys an advantage over any other player in the gamble under the conditions or rules of the game or contest.

13-3301-7-B pretty much makes being the house matron of a poker hall illegal in Arizona.

...but again, I'm sure that your interpretation of this law is different than the Maricopa County AG's office. IANAL, so, my opinion isn't worth much more than the electrons used to store this message.

There are plenty of illegal things out there, but there's not a lot of reason to burn taxpayer dollars fighting it. Right now, clubs like yours in Arizona are still barely under the radar -- newspaper article or not.

My guess is that clubs in AZ that take a rake, like yours, and charge a fee at the door, like yours, will get shut down like Club Royale did. The wheels turn slowly over at the AG's office. It took two years from the first investigation of Club Royale until they were raided in December.

All this said, I've played there, and if the mood stuck me to pay that game instead of $1-2 closer to my house in the East Valley, or $5-150 at CAZ, I just might. What can I say - I'm a maverick. I enjoyed the game, and found no fault with the room itself. It's bright, well lit, cameras on the tables, professional run, blah blah. And I can balance the chance of an AG's office bust in with my EV calculation

I'm going to try to visit a few more rooms that I haven't been to this weekend. If someone wants me to stop by THEIR place, let me know. [And after this article, why wouldn't you - heh...]