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Old 05-31-2009, 12:53 PM   #1
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Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Here is a synopsis and resources for this new bill, passed on 5/8/2009:

Read the full final bill text here:

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sectio...8&Session=2009

Read the history of the bill here:

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/SEctio...x?BillId=40418

Cliff Notes

SB788 authorizes the Governor of Florida to negotiate a gambling compact with the Seminole Tribe, and states the terms which must be contained in that compact. It also changes the wording of some of the current laws regarding pari-mutuels and their cardrooms.

The gambling compact and all the changes to pari-mutuel laws will not go into effect unless and until the actual gambling compact has been negotiated with the tribe, accepted by the tribe by a vote of their elders (deadline August 31), ratified by the Florida legislature by vote, accepted by the Federal government and then published in the Federal Register. All of these steps need to be completed for any of the changes to become law. If the Seminole casinos or any of the pari-mutuels implement any of the changes before all these steps are completed, they well be doing so illegally.

Once the bill takes effect (after the new compact is published in the Federal Law), the poker laws in Florida will change to:

No betting or buy-in limits. Cardrooms and casinos can lay any stakes with any buy-in for both cash game and tournament.

Cardrooms at pari-mutuels can be open 18hrs/day M-F; 24hrs/day S-S and holidays.

Pari-mutuels which don't have a cardroom can apply for a cardroom license immediately, or if they are brand new, after they have held one single race day.

Current Florida law states that the minimum gambling age is 18 for pari-mutuel betting, 18 for licensed cardrooms and 21 for gaming machines. The bill does not make any changes to this except to specify that the "21 years of age" limit will apply to all games at the Seminole casinos "unless otherwise permitted by state law" and that no one under 21 years of age will be allowed on "the casino floor".

Timeline for Implementation

All of the following steps have to be completed before any of the changes per the new bill go into effect:

1. Legislature Officers submit the bill to the Governor. (Just a procedural step, should happen sometime in June.)
2. Governor signs the bill into law. (Governor has one week to sign the bill after it is submitted to him. If he doesn't sign or veto it within a week, it automatically becomes law.)
2. Governor and Tribe "negotiate" the compact (strictly per the terms of the bill).
3. Tribe passes and signs the new compact. (Deadline August 31st.)
4. Florida legislature (House and Senate) votes to ratify the compact. (The Legislature will have to convene a special session to do this, probably in October.)
5. Federal Secretary of the Interior approves the compact (which he will - he can only disapprove it if it violates Federal law, which it doesn't), or 45 days passes after it is submitted to him without an approval or disapproval being issued by him.
6. Federal Secretary of the Interior publishes the compact in the Federal Register.

I'm estimating circa Jan 1 for completion, assuming the tribe doesn't reject, or try to change, the terms.

Change in Age Limit

The bill does not change the age limit for poker at the pari-mutuels. It remains at age 18.

Whether or not the Seminoles enforce the 21 age restriction for their poker rooms is probably up to them. If they want to allow 18-20s in the poker rooms, they would just have to make the rooms accessible without traversing the casino floor. But in pratical terms, its probably more of a hassle for them to have to police this than to just say no one under 21 anywhere near any gaming. Plus, if they are going to offer complimentary drinks as rumored, they wouldn't want the 18-20s imbibing. Chances are that no one under 21 will be allowed in the Seminole casino poker rooms.

Betting Limits Changes

The bill will remove all betting and buy-in limits for poker at all cardrooms and casinos in Florida. This means that each poker room can set the buy-in and stakes for both cash games and tournaments. All types of poker games with all types of betting (limit, spread limit, pot limit and no limit) will be allowed under Florida law. It also means that the big tournament entities (WSOP, WPT, HPT, etc.) will include Florida in their circuit events. Florida will become one of the major poker destinations in the country.

Why the Seminole Tribe May Accept the New Compact

The Class III banked games being run by the Seminoles currently are not legal unless there is a valid compact with the State of Florida. The Florida Supreme Court voided the original compact in January 2008. If the Tribe doesn't negotiate and sign a new compact with the state, the matter goes to Federal government mediation. At that time, the state could re-vamp their position and submit a different proposal to the mediator, potentially one which denies banked games to any Seminole casino and allows them only Class III slots - the only Class III gaming that is allowed by law anywhere else in Florida.

This would return the issue to: is the Seminole Tribe entitled to run all Class III gaming since Class III slots are authorized by Florida law in Broward County? The Federal mediator would then chose one side or the other as being correct. Any decision would then probably go to court battles, injunctions against Class III gaming, etc. Years and years to sort out. And in the meantime, Federal Marshalls may be required to close the current banked games at the Seminole casinos.

So, if the Seminoles don't make a deal now they are facing the possibility of being denied all banked games permanently, or at least for the years it might take to sort it out in court. That's their incentive to accept the new compact offer now.

Why the Seminole Tribe May Reject the New Compact

The bill does not give exclusive rights for Class III Gaming to the Seminole tribe. It does state that if Class III Gaming is allowed elsewhere in the state, the tribe can propotionately reduce their payments to the state if their profit from gaming falls below 1.37 billion dollars. For a pari-mutuel to get Class III Gaming (beyond the Class III slots already allowed in Broward and Miami-Dade counties), it would have to be voted on by the state legislature as well as at local referendum.

The bill also limits Class III banked games (blackjack, bacarrat, etc.) to four out of seven of the Seminole casinos. One of the excluded casinos is the Immokalee casino, where the Tribe just spent 22 million dollars to install the banked games, and has further expansion plans to make it a casino resort.

The bill also opens the door for similar gaming compacts to be granted to other Indian tribes in Florida. Such a compact would likely be granted to the Miccosukke tribe for their casino locations in Miami, which would directly compete with the Seminole casinos.

Can the Terms of the New Compact Change During Negotiations with the Tribe

Not according to this bill. The bill (law as soon as signed by the governor) authorizes Governor Crist to only negotiate those terms that are in the bill. He can't negotiate something else. "Negotiate" is just the legal term to mean write out the details and get signed. If the Seminoles want something else not in the bill, they can only request a change to the new law (which would require once again a new bill and votes in the legislature) to change the terms of the negotiation. If Crist comes back with a compact that has terms other than what was authorized by the bill, it is just as likely to be struck down as was the first compact.

Some speculate that the Tribe will ask to include their Immokalee casino in the compact, either in addition to the four already included or in place of one of the four. If the legislature could have conceded on Immokalee, they already would have. The House gaming proposal moved from no banked games anywhere in the state to banked games at four Seminole casinos plus a legal mechanism for any of the pari-mutuels to attempt to get Class III slots and banked games themselves. This was a huge move from their original stand. I'm pretty sure the compact is either going to stand or fail as it is right now, depending on whether or not the tribe accepts or rejects it. The new compact also allows the Seminole tribe to attempt to get more games, or expansion of the games to more of their casinos, in just five years from the date the compact goes into effect. That will probably satisfy them enough for their future plans. They can fight that battle separately in five years, rather than throw away the baby and the bathwater right now.

What Happens Next if the Seminole Tribe Does Not Sign the New Compact

Here is the request by the Florida Attorney General to close down the Seminole's Class III banked games, last November:

http://myfloridalegal.com/webfiles.n...ogenLetter.pdf

Here is a timeline which shows the history of the compact before and since that request:

http://www.sfgcoalition.com/pdf/timeline.pdf

As it stands, the last court action was a request by the Seminole tribe last December to the U.S. Supreme Court to review the decision of the Florida Supreme Court which voided the first compact. Only if the U.S. Supreme Court agrees to hear the case and rules in the tribe's favor will the first compact stand. Otherwise, the U.S. Attorney General will be obligated to send in the Marshalls to shut the games down, absent any new compact.

The stakes are the same as they have been - the tribe can accept the terms of the new compact, or they can go for more but run the risk of getting no banked games at all in the end.

There is no such thing as Class III Gaming allowed on tribal lands without a compact with the state. If a compact can't be settled between the state and the tribe, a Federal mediator will pick one and that will become law. The tribe cannot just continue to run Class III Gaming without a compact. The only legal question to be settled if the tribe doesn't accept the new compact is whether or not the old compact can legally be voided by the Florida Supreme Court. If the U.S. Supreme Court agrees to hear the case, they will make that determination; otherwise, the Florida Supreme Court decision stands and the Federal Attorney General would have to enforce it on tribal lands.

Why I Think the Original Compact Does Not Stand Under Federal Law

1. The Seminole tribe requested the U.S. Supreme Court to review the Florida Supreme Court decision. If the original compact is "Federal law" that cannot be changed by the Florida court decision, then the tribe would have no reason to request the review. Instead, it would be up to the State of Florida to bring a challenge to Federal court against this interpretation of "Federal law."

2. The Secretary of the National Indian Gaming Commission (NIGC), in response to the request by the Florida Attorney General to shut down the Class III games on Seminole tribal lands, requested a written argument from the Seminole tribe justifying their legal right to run the games. If the compact stood under "Federal law" and cannot be changed by the Florida court decision, then the Secretary of the NIGC would have requested such legal argument from the Florida Attorney General instead.

At issue is whether or not the decision by the Florida Supreme Court made the original compact hold no force in the eyes of Federal law. The argument of the Florida Attorney General is simple - the State Supreme Court held that the compact is void since it was entered into without legal authority, therefore it does not have the force of Federal law as it was not legally "entered into" as required by Federal law. Apparently it falls upon the tribe to prove otherwise to the U.S. Supreme Court and/or the Secretary of the NIGC.
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Old 05-31-2009, 01:47 PM   #2
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Great post ! Thank you
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:58 PM   #3
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Very well written.

Unfortunately, some will still refuse to read it and will just post a question.
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:42 PM   #4
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

In before someone asks if the age limits will change or when the limits will go up (despite the fact that OP went over all this in depth).
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:17 PM   #5
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls_horn View Post
In before someone asks if the age limits will change or when the limits will go up (despite the fact that OP went over all this in depth).
LOL. I don't mind if they do. Just gives me a chance to post a pithy putdown.
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:25 PM   #6
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

What age do I have to be to bet on Black on a video roulette machine? What age do I have to be to bet on the dogs ? How old do I need to be to win the bad beat jackpot @ the hardrock in Tampa?
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:40 PM   #7
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chet22r View Post
What age do I have to be to bet on Black on a video roulette machine? What age do I have to be to bet on the dogs ? How old do I need to be to win the bad beat jackpot @ the hardrock in Tampa?
Older than your mental age.

P.S. If you are serious about any of these questions, let me know and I'll give a serious answer.
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:23 PM   #8
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Any hope for Orlando? Does each county have individual right to refuse this? Ive heard Seminole and Orange County will not go along with this. Tell me if Im totally misguided.
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:36 PM   #9
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeenRiveredAgain View Post
Any hope for Orlando? Does each county have individual right to refuse this? Ive heard Seminole and Orange County will not go along with this. Tell me if Im totally misguided.
I have heard they have some sort of law against it. However, this seems like one of those areas where state law would trump local laws
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:48 PM   #10
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

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Originally Posted by BeenRiveredAgain View Post
Any hope for Orlando? Does each county have individual right to refuse this? Ive heard Seminole and Orange County will not go along with this. Tell me if Im totally misguided.
Refuse what exactly? Florida state law applies to every county. What part of the bill are you talking about?

If you mean do the pari-mutuels that don't have cardrooms automatically get them, the answer is no. The wording in the state laws about local government approval stay the same. The new law will only change when a pari-mutuel is eligible to apply for a cardroom license (i.e., no waiting period after starting races). It doesn't change the requirements to get a license, including local approval.

Here is current Florida law in regards to local approval. This does not change under the new bill:

Quote:
(16) LOCAL GOVERNMENT APPROVAL.--

The Division of Pari-mutuel Wagering shall not issue any initial [cardroom] license under this section except upon proof in such form as the division may prescribe that the local government where the applicant for such license desires to conduct cardroom gaming has voted to approve such activity by a majority vote of the governing body of the municipality or the governing body of the county if the facility is not located in a municipality.

Last edited by PokerXanadu; 05-31-2009 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:00 PM   #11
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Thanks. Guess I was really wondering if the dog track and/or Jai Lai could start having poker. These are within minutes of my house.I dont like driving to Tampa/Daytona/Melbourne.

Last edited by BeenRiveredAgain; 05-31-2009 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:07 PM   #12
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Excellent post. Thanks for the summary and outlook. Hopefully 2010 and beyond will be huge for Florida Poker-

WSOP and WPT events will have stops here and the side games will be sick.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:19 PM   #13
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyramid_Scam View Post
Excellent post. Thanks for the summary and outlook. Hopefully 2010 and beyond will be huge for Florida Poker-

WSOP and WPT events will have stops here and the side games will be sick.
Looks like I need to get to work on my bankroll. Good idea for me to quit my day job?
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:22 PM   #14
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

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Originally Posted by BeenRiveredAgain View Post
Thanks. Guess I was really wondering if the dog track and/or Jai Lai could start having poker. These are within minutes of my house.I dont likee driving to Tampa/Daytona/Melbourne.
No more so than now. They will still require local approval.

Get involved in your local politics. If more players would become vocal about their desire to play locally it could happen. One of the main arguments in your area against granting approval is that the cardrooms would mainly cause the local area residents to gamble more. But you and other players could show that the bulk of players who would populate the cardrooms already play by traveling outside the county. In fact, a grassroots petition signed by a large number of local players would probably get you a local cardroom.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:57 PM   #15
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Re: Florida New Poker Limits - SB 788.

^Its so hard to do in this county. The elderly population has so much power here. Just look at how they made it illegal for strip clubs to be fully nude. There was a big fight over that, but it was useless.

Im not sure why I still live here.
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