Warning about U.S. Licensing and Regulation: what is happening in Italy can happen to us!

[davmcg]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

I never worked for Wall St.



Now let's get to the facts.

................. players abroad that will all flock to the US companies because they can be TRUSTED.

Yes ppl who invested with Madoff really know that US regulation can be trusted. Oh and it was US citizens that cheated customers at UB/AP and no action has been taken against them.

Regulation of any kind is mostly about creating jobs for regulators and there is little evidence that it advantages consumers in any way.

[wallstreetpro]

People don't be fooled by theses shill posts.

Given a choice between a US based regulated company and a scumbag offshore mafia organization the choice is SIMPLE.




I rather dance with the devil I know, then the one I do not.


No matter how offshore poker sites try, eventually congress will wake up to the taxation revenue they are missing out on and when that happens the offshores will be crushed by American companies. I for one can't wait till that happens.


I will end my posting on this thread with the final statement:

Be mindful when you read posts like this in this forum because they are biased for a good reason.

[davmcg]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

People don't be fooled by theses shill posts.

Given a choice between a US based regulated company and a scumbag offshore mafia organization the choice is SIMPLE.




rather dance with the devil I know, then the one I do not.


No matter how offshore poker sites try, eventually congress will wake up to the taxation revenue they are missing out on and when that happens the offshores will be crushed by American companies. I for one can't wait till that happens and they now it better then anybody.


I will end my posting on this thread with the final statement:

Be mindful of that when you read posts like this in this forum because they are biased for a good reason.

The good reason being that you are stupid (and can't spell).

[sincityalpha]

Massive LOL @ everything that wallstreet"pro" has said so far ITT. He is wrong on just about every statement that he maid in this thread. I just can't be bothered wasting my time debunking every one of his false statements. His thinking is completely backwards and just plain WRONG.

I bet if the clown actually has any $$$, it's only if he won the lotto or inherited it.... Otherwise, it's really hard to believe someone making a fortune in the markets over time, w/o even the basic understanding of econ 101.

Oh yeah capitalism=regulation, protectionism, monopoly privileges and high taxes.

Get a ******* clue....... seriously

[flafishy]

Originally Posted by Tuff_Fish

How do you propose to get such a law passed?

If a law containing those provisions is not forthcoming, and instead the law is proposed more or less as currently written, do you intend to team with FOF and try to defeat it?

Tuff

I would. The Barney Frank bill as written is a disaster in the making.

[Doom_Switch]

Originally Posted by davmcg

The good reason being that you are stupid (and can't spell).

Why the blatant attacks? He makes great points and I agree with him 100%. Who the hell cares what happens to FT, UB, PokerStars, and other offshore sites whose shills who feel threatened by fair regulated onshore games?

Regulation in ANY form is far better than the status quo. Why not just jump on board and offer full support instead?

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

No matter how offshore poker sites try, eventually congress will wake up to the taxation revenue they are missing out on and when that happens the offshores will be crushed by American companies. I for one can't wait till that happens.

It isn't an either-or proposition. At least that is what I am attempting to avoid. Licensing and regulation can end up being protectionist for U.S. companies, or open to both U.S. and foreign companies. This is the crux of my post.

As currently written, the Frank bill leaves the opportunity for our government regulators of licensing to close the door to our current foreign-based poker sites. All I am advocating here is to get the wording of the bill changed so that licensing will be equally available to the sites we currently use. They can pay taxes, too.

[phils08]

i dont understand the attacks on off shore sites, especially stars. While we're in complete agreement that regulation is better then the statu quo, that doesnt mean stars hasnt been absolutely exemplory in all its years of service.

Id argue they run their business far better then anyone will in the future may it be harrahs or who ever. My personal but unlikely hope is that stars is given the opportunity to serve the US as a licensed company and allow their owners to come in from the shadows. Whether that happens or not, stars is absolutely the industry standard, and the status quo has been damn good thanks to them.

imo.

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by phils08

i dont understand the attacks on off shore sites, especially stars. While we're in complete agreement that regulation is better then the statu quo, that doesnt mean stars hasnt been absolutely exemplory in all its years of service.

Id argue they run their business far better then anyone will in the future may it be harrahs or who ever. My personal but unlikely hope is that stars is given the opportunity to serve the US as a licensed company and allow their owners to come in from the shadows. Whether that happens or not, stars is absolutely the industry standard, and the status quo has been damn good thanks to them.

imo.

+1

[davmcg]

Originally Posted by Doom_Switch

Why the blatant attacks? He makes great points and I agree with him 100%. Who the hell cares what happens to FT, UB, PokerStars, and other offshore sites whose shills who feel threatened by fair regulated onshore games?

Regulation in ANY form is far better than the status quo. Why not just jump on board and offer full support instead?

Party FT and PS are all licensed in Europe. Their games are all fair. There is no requirement whatsoever for further licensing and regulation and no requirement for my rake to fund the lifestyle of idle civil servants and government lackeys in any country.

[PokerXanadu]

Here are changes I would like to see the the Frank bill:

Frank bill reads:

`SUBCHAPTER V--REGULATION OF LAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING

`Sec. 5381. Congressional findings
...
`(6) There is a need to extend the regulatory provisions of this Act to all persons, locations, equipment, practices, and associations related to Internet gambling, with each State and Indian tribe having the ability to limit Internet gambling operators from offering Internet gambling to persons located within its territory by opting out of the provisions of this Act

I would change it to:

`(6) There is a need to extend the regulatory provisions of this Act to all persons, locations, equipment, practices, and associations related to Internet gambling, with each State and Indian tribe having the ability to limit Internet gambling operators from offering Internet gambling to persons located within its territory by opting to prohibit any Internet gambling games which are currently prohibited everywhere, and to every person, organization, or entity, within their borders.

Frank bill currently says:

`Sec. 5383. Establishment and administration of licensing program
...
`(1) SUITABILITY FOR LICENSING STANDARDS-

`(A) IN GENERAL- No person shall be eligible to obtain a license unless the Secretary has determined, upon completion of a background check and investigation, that the applicant, and any person deemed to be in control of the applicant, is suitable for licensing.

`(B) ASSOCIATES OF APPLICANTS- If the applicant is a corporation, partnership, or other business entity, a background check and investigation shall occur with respect to the president or other chief executive of the corporation, partnership, or other business entity and other partners or senior executives and directors of the corporation, partnership, or entity, as determined appropriate by the Secretary, in the Secretary's sole discretion.

`(C) BACKGROUND CHECK AND INVESTIGATION- The Secretary shall establish standards and procedures for conducting background checks and investigations for purposes of this subsection.

I would add to this:

(D) LICENSING OF UNLICENSED PERSONS AND FACILITIES - No person may be denied a license or a license renewal to operate an Internet gambling facility on the grounds of unknowingly or knowingly accepting bets or wagers from persons located in the United States either prior or subsequent to the implementation of this subchapter without a license issued by the Secretary in accordance with this subchapter.

Frank bill currently says:

`Sec. 5385. Financial transaction providers

`(a) In General- No financial transaction provider shall be held liable for engaging in financial activities and transactions for or on behalf of a licensee or involving a licensee, including payments processing activities, if such activities are performed in compliance with this subchapter and with applicable Federal and State laws.

I would change this to:

`Sec. 5385. Financial transaction providers

`(a) In General- No financial transaction provider shall be held liable for engaging in financial activities and transactions for or on behalf of a licensee or involving a licensee, including payments processing activities, if such activities are performed in compliance, or the provider reasonably believes such activities are performed in compliance, with this subchapter and with applicable Federal and State laws.

Frank bill currently says:

`Sec. 5386. Limitation of licenses in States and Indian lands

`(a) State Opt-Out Exercise-

`(1) LIMITATIONS IMPOSED BY STATES-

`(A) IN GENERAL- No licensee may engage, under any license issued under this subchapter, in the operation of an Internet gambling facility that knowingly accepts bets or wagers initiated by persons who reside in any State which provides notice that it will limit such bets or wagers, if the Governor or other chief executive officer of such State informs the Director of such limitation, in a manner which clearly identifies the nature and extent of such limitation, before the end of the 90-day period beginning on the date of the enactment of the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act, or in accordance with paragraph (2), until such time as any notice of any amendment or repeal of such specific limitation becomes effective under paragraph (2).

I would change this to:

`(A) IN GENERAL- No licensee may engage, under any license issued under this subchapter, in accepting bets or wagers for any Internet gambling games that are initiated by persons who reside in any State which provides notice that it will prohibit such bets or wagers, if the Governor or other chief executive officer of such State informs the Director of such prohibition, in a manner which clearly identifies the nature and extent of such prohibition and which shows that the prohibited games are currently illegal in the State to every person, organization, or entity, everywhere within the State borders including all tribal lands, before the end of the 90-day period beginning on the date of the enactment of the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act, or in accordance with paragraph (2), until such time as any notice of any amendment or repeal of such specific prohibition becomes effective under paragraph (2), or until such time as any such prohibited games become legal in the State to any person, organization, or entity, anywhere within the State borders including tribal lands.

These changes address my concerns #1 & #2 in my OP. Additions to the bill would be needed to address #3 & #4 for peer-to-peer and skill games.

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by davmcg

Party FT and PS are all licensed in Europe. Their games are all fair. There is no requirement whatsoever for further licensing and regulation and no requirement for my rake to fund the lifestyle of idle civil servants and government lackeys in any country.

Except that our freedom in the U.S. to play on those sites is being severely curtailed. Our choices are U.S. licensing and regulation, or UIGEA and further curtailments. We know that we won't get simple repeal of the UIGEA - it's just not politically feasible (i.e., we don't have enough clout). Licensing and regulation is the lesser of the two evils. I'd love to have free access to all the sites without any government interference, licensing, taxation, etc. But those days are over. Licensing, regulation and taxation are coming. Let's just make sure it will be equally available to all sites, both U.S. and foreign, including all the sites that we currently use.

[wallstreetpro]

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

It isn't an either-or proposition. At least that is what I am attempting to avoid. Licensing and regulation can end up being protectionist for U.S. companies, or open to both U.S. and foreign companies. This is the crux of my post.

As currently written, the Frank bill leaves the opportunity for our government regulators of licensing to close the door to our current foreign-based poker sites. All I am advocating here is to get the wording of the bill changed so that licensing will be equally available to the sites we currently use. They can pay taxes, too.

I understand what your saying and I apologize if I sound jaded towards the offshores but that's just because I hate them lol.

Seriously though, I think that no matter what happens regulation will be a good thing for us (players) in the long run.

The last thing we need to do is split hairs right now and be divided in any way.

[Jussurreal]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

I understand what your saying and I apologize if I sound jaded towards the offshores but that's just because I hate them lol.

Seriously though, I think that no matter what happens regulation will be a good thing for us (players) in the long run.

The last thing we need to do is split hairs right now and be divided in any way.

I'm thinking more and more that legislation is going to end up being a very bad thing for many poker/casino/sports internet gambling Americans.

Its going to actually put laws on the books (that didn't exist before) that make it actually illegal TO PLACE A BET ON THE INTERNET.

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by Jussurreal

I'm thinking more and more that legislation is going to end up being a very bad thing for many poker/casino/sports internet gambling Americans.

Its going to actually put laws on the books (that didn't exist before) that make it actually illegal TO PLACE A BET ON THE INTERNET.

Yep, that's the risk. Licensing and regulation can either be very good for us or very bad for us, depending on how the legislation and the regulations are worded. We have to stay on top of it and fight to get what is good for us. (Which is what the PPA is doing, btw, I'm pretty sure.)