Warning about U.S. Licensing and Regulation: what is happening in Italy can happen to us!

[PokerXanadu]

If you haven't been following the thread under Internet Poker about pokerstars in Italy, you should:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...s-help-541892/

This is a perfect example of the dangers of federal licensing and regulation of internet gambling (and poker). If we don't get the changes to the Barney Frank bill that we want, we run the very high risk that we will lose access to our beloved sites: FPT and PS. Certainly with the state opt-out as currently written in place, at a minimum many states may become blocked on those sites.

As things are right now, FTP and PS can rightfully claim that they are not violating any U.S. laws. But if we have a new law that says that only sites that are licensed and regulated by the US. government can offer internet gambling (and poker) to U.S. citizens, and only in states that don't opt out, then suddenly FTP and PS are clearly violating a U.S. law unless they comply.

Plus, as the bill is currently written, there is nothing that guarantees that PS and FTP will get a U.S. license. The bill specifies that anyone applying for a license that has a criminal background will be denied a license. The DOJ can simply take the stance that having operated a site before licensing was a violation of law (whether or not this is true), and thereby deny licensing to any current foreign-based sites. There needs to be an amnesty clause in the bill, i.e. having a site pre-Frank bill is not grounds for a denial of a license.

I am not against Federal licensing and regulation, but I am against a bill that severly limits our choices. The bill must include:

1. Strict rules for state opt-outs, i.e. the state must demonstrate that their state laws do not allow the same gaming anywhere within their borders (including tribal lands).

2. Amnesty for current sites in terms of gaining a license.

3. No federal wagering limits.

4. The player base of a licensed site is not restricted to U.S. players only.

(I would also like to see it include provisions for recriprocal licensing of sites with foreign licensing authorities.)

[PokerXanadu]

Oh, and by the way, this is also exactly the same paradigm as that which is being promoted by Jim Tabilio of Poker Voters of America: in-state licensing and regulation of poker sites. This is equivalent to country by country licensing and regulation within the EU.

Jim says that he is pushing the legislation for in-state licensing (currently in California and soon in Florida, to begin with) as a method of increasing our choices - we will be able to choose between playing state licensed sites (which will be legal under the UIGEA) and our current foreign unlicensed sites. But this might not be the way it turns out, depending on the wording of the actual bills. We have to vigilant to make sure the bills don't make the unlicensed sites illegal within the state.

[BlunderCity]

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

As things are right now, FTP and PS can rightfully claim that they are not violating any U.S. laws. But if we have a new law that says that only sites that are licensed and regulated by the US. government can offer internet gambling (and poker) to U.S. citizens, and only in states that don't opt out, then suddenly FTP and PS are clearly violating a U.S. law unless they comply.

I'm not so sure. If there's a law stipulating that the operator must be US based, the sites can argue this violates international trade laws.

Imagine there's a law saying that any pair of trainers bought in the US must be made by a US company. Do you think a german firm like adidas would see this as a violation of trade rules?

This will still be seen by me and others as blatant protectionism which is what anti gambling legislation has been all along.

[wallstreetpro]

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

If we don't get the changes to the Barney Frank bill that we want, we run the very high risk that we will lose access to our beloved sites: FPT and PS.

Screw these offshore crooks and keep the tax money in the country!!!


I for one would love to see FTP and Stars put out of business and the US companies like MIR, Harrahs or Wynn go into the business.


Not to mention the stock plays that I could make if they took over the business.

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by BlunderCity

I'm not so sure. If there's a law stipulating that the operator must be US based, the sites can argue this violates international trade laws.

Imagine there's a law saying that any pair of trainers bought in the US must be made by a US company. Do you think a german firm like adidas would see this as a violation of trade rules?

This will still be seen by me and others as blatant protectionism which is what anti gambling legislation has been all along.

They don't have to specify that only US companies can get licenses to exclude sites like PS and FTP. The bill, as current written, excludes anyone with a criminal background from getting a license. The DOJ, in the licensing regulations that will follow the passage of the bill, might classify any site that offered gaming to US players post-UIGEA as criminal, and thus deny them a license.

[PokerXanadu]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

Screw these offshore crooks and keep the tax money in the country!!!


I for one would love to see FTP and Stars put out of business and the US companies like MIR, Harrahs or Wynn go into the business.


Not to mention the stock plays that I could make if they took over the business.

Here is a perfect example of how the Frank bill might be implemented. Current sites out the window. U.S. based companies come in and take over the market, probably at higher rake and less rewards (to wit, compare current B&M's versus current online sites). The Frank bill is great for us, but in the end only if the necessary changes as I listed are put in.

[wallstreetpro]

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

Here is a perfect example of how the Frank bill might be implemented. Current sites out the window. U.S. based companies come in and take over the market, probably at higher rake and less rewards (to wit, compare current B&M's versus current online sites). The Frank bill is great for us, but in the end only if the necessary changes as I listed are put in.

I highly doubt that the US companies will be less competitive.

Americans do capitalism better then everybody.

[BigAlK]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

I highly doubt that the US companies will be less competitive.

Americans do capitalism better then everybody.

If you consider capitalism to be protectionist laws to give them an advantage, then sure, they do.

[BlunderCity]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

Screw these offshore crooks and keep the tax money in the country!!!


I for one would love to see FTP and Stars put out of business and the US companies like MIR, Harrahs or Wynn go into the business.


Not to mention the stock plays that I could make if they took over the business.

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

I highly doubt that the US companies will be less competitive.

Americans do capitalism better then everybody.

Your mentality is frightening!!!

It's reminicent of those ultra nationalists of the 1930s, I won't name them, I think you can put 2 and 2 together!!

You really sound like a mindless nationalist who hasn't yet understood that the US is the number 1 economic power precisely because it never did what you advocate. If the US was full of people like you, the country would be nothing more than in inward looking banana republic!!!

[davmcg]

I really don't understand what Pokerstars are up to. The Italian law surely breaches EU free trade undertakings. Instead of encouraging protectionist behaviour (by paying license fees and taxes) PS should be linking up with the other gaming providers and fighting protectionist laws in the relevant courts.

[banonlinepoker]

Screw these offshore crooks and keep the tax money in the country!!!


I for one would love to see FTP and Stars put out of business and the US companies like MIR, Harrahs or Wynn go into the business.

[wallstreetpro]

Originally Posted by BlunderCity

Your mentality is frightening!!!

It's reminicent of those ultra nationalists of the 1930s, I won't name them, I think you can put 2 and 2 together!!

You really sound like a mindless nationalist who hasn't yet understood that the US is the number 1 economic power precisely because it never did what you advocate. If the US was full of people like you, the country would be nothing more than in inward looking banana republic!!!

Hahahaha

I'm a Canadian

I've spent a lifetime learning / understanding American capitalism and made a fortune from it !

Can you say the same ?

[Tuff_Fish]

Originally Posted by PokerXanadu

I am not against Federal licensing and regulation, but I am against a bill that severly limits our choices. The bill must include:

1. Strict rules for state opt-outs, i.e. the state must demonstrate that their state laws do not allow the same gaming anywhere within their borders (including tribal lands).

2. Amnesty for current sites in terms of gaining a license.

3. No federal wagering limits.

4. The player base of a licensed site is not restricted to U.S. players only.

(I would also like to see it include provisions for recriprocal licensing of sites with foreign licensing authorities.)

How do you propose to get such a law passed?

If a law containing those provisions is not forthcoming, and instead the law is proposed more or less as currently written, do you intend to team with FOF and try to defeat it?

Tuff

[dxu05]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

Hahahaha

I'm a Canadian

I've spent a lifetime learning / understanding American capitalism and made a fortune from it !

Can you say the same ?

Have you seen the american agricultural industry? Quite capitalist!

[tangled]

Originally Posted by wallstreetpro

I highly doubt that the US companies will be less competitive.

Americans do capitalism better then everybody.

Then why do they need protectionism?