UK Remote Gambling consult - help me & you

[RajHendon]

Originally Posted by Pascal-lF

sensible? what? are you mad

More sensible than the US situation, where our jobs were legislated away.

I say they segregate the UK player pool. The UK has a large enough player base to allow the very best tournie and cash players to make a living.

[davmcg]

Originally Posted by RajHendon

The sensible thing would be to segregate the UK player pool i.e. UK players should only be allowed to play against UK players.

The sensible thing to do would be to grab the lapels of the govt minister responsible and say "If you think you are going to take a tax grab and still allow companies like mediacorp/purple lounge or FTP to steal our money, you can eat s***"

[Sol Eisenberg]

how long till the uk goverment starts taxing players winnings? id think this will happen in the near future

[RajHendon]

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2012_complete.pdf

The UK Budget 2012, which the OP document has a reference to says this in section 1.204:

"1.204 The current taxation regime for remote gambling has allowed operators to avoid paying UK gambling duties by basing their operations abroad. To broaden the tax base and provide a fairer basis for competition between UK and overseas remote gambling operators, Budget 2012 announces that the Government will move to a tax regime that ensures operators anywhere in the world pay gambling duties on gross profits generated from customers based in the UK. This is in line with the actions of several other European countries."

Are these the other countries which have moved away from international player pools? Probably so. It seems like a segregation of the UK player pool is the best way to manage these legislative changes.

[Richas]

Originally Posted by RajHendon

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/budget2012_complete.pdf

The UK Budget 2012, which the OP document has a reference to says this in section 1.204:

"1.204 The current taxation regime for remote gambling has allowed operators to avoid paying UK gambling duties by basing their operations abroad. To broaden the tax base and provide a fairer basis for competition between UK and overseas remote gambling operators, Budget 2012 announces that the Government will move to a tax regime that ensures operators anywhere in the world pay gambling duties on gross profits generated from customers based in the UK. This is in line with the actions of several other European countries."

Are these the other countries which have moved away from international player pools? Probably so. It seems like a segregation of the UK player pool is the best way to manage these legislative changes.

No, No No - thankfully this is neither necessary nor in the interests of Pokerstars or other sites.

Segregating player pools has ben introduced by primary legislation preventing foreign players and by introducing an egregious rake system that would make it insane for any other national to want to join such a game and pay far more.

The UK legislation proposed does not require segregation of player pools, nor does it require operators to be based in the UK. There is no driver to force Stars or anyone else to segregate UK players, all they need to do is understand their tax obligation, track it and pay it.

This is no more onerous a technical feat than trackcking FPPs. Strategically encouraging the break up of the player pool into smaller units is not in their interests and not in the interests of players. The UK alone may be viable but that does not make it optimal either for UK players, foreign players or the company providing the service.

Simply put I realy hate the idea that UK players should be denied access to SCOOP, WCOOP or playing against non UK residents. in fact I think doing so is a breach of the EU competition laws.

Segregating player pools is not in the interests of Stars or Players. In France and Italy the governments imposed this primarily in order to rake players extortionately. A viable international tax and regulatory regime does not require segregation.

[Richas]

Originally Posted by Sol Eisenberg

how long till the uk goverment starts taxing players winnings? id think this will happen in the near future

Very unlikely. The UK taxes gambling providers, there is no tax on winnings whether they are the lottery, poker, horseracing, Bingo or whatever. Some 67%+ of over 16s in the UK gamble. Introducing personal taxation of winnings would be hugely unpopular and divisive.

The UK government has just been forced to witdraw sales tax on hot pies sold as takeaway food when served from the oven and not reheated or kept heated. A measure that would have raised a mere £25m a year. The row was huge.

The idea of taxing gambling winnings including lottery winners would go down in the UK like the proverbial bag of cold sick and make the "pasty tax" row seem very minor.

Just because the US has a ridiculous tax system for gambling winnings does not mean that it could be imposed here in the UK, or that it is likely that a UK government would try.

Here the government is trying to impose the 15% levy on gross revenues imposed on suppliers of gambling services in the online, international world. That is a million miles away from trying to impose personal taxes on gambling winnings.

[Kady]

About question 3: Spain closed it's market yesterday.

IMHO they should look at the Belgium and Estonia, they taxed their players, but are still in the international playing pool.

[RajHendon]

Originally Posted by Kady

About question 3: Spain closed it's market yesterday.

IMHO they should look at the Belgium and Estonia, they taxed their players, but are still in the international playing pool.

Closing a market is preferable to taxing players!

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...ker-site-today

However, there is still confusion in Spain as to whether players are taxable:
http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-and-re...tax-confusion/

[Pascal-lF]

Do you mean closing market is preferable to taxing players for players or for Pokerstars? If so, why?

[RajHendon]

Originally Posted by Pascal-lF

Do you mean closing market is preferable to taxing players for players or for Pokerstars? If so, why?

All from the player perspective.

I would prefer to play tax-free in a geographically segregated market than taxed in an international pool.

[Pascal-lF]

Can you explain why?

[RajHendon]

Cos I will make more money that way.

[Pascal-lF]

In the short run or in the long run? Smaller player pools are just going to bust the fish sooner, and fewer recreational players will play as prize pools will be smaller and not worth the time.

[RajHendon]

Fish don't last, but new fish are born all the time.

Yes, it will be bad for tournies, but cash will be fine.

[Pascal-lF]

There will be less table selection, more regs per table meaning players lose their money quicker and enjoy it less and regs earn less and thus play more tables, and very little play off peak times. Also, if it's bad for tournies then it'll be bad for cash too - players who win money in tournies often end up losing it playing cash and there will be less incentive to log on to play tournaments which recreational players often multitable alongside a couple of cash tables.