Remission of FTP funds and the PPA

[leowolf]

Thank you very much....now I really PPA....btw my PPA Member ID is 7983836 (that shows, that I love PPA since a long time!)

[BoJackson]

Any news on funds which were put into a player's accounts but never withdrawn from their bank account? Right before BF I deposited ~$100 and was able to play with it but I never had it taken out of my bank account.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by BoJackson

Any news on funds which were put into a player's accounts but never withdrawn from their bank account? Right before BF I deposited ~$100 and was able to play with it but I never had it taken out of my bank account.

The exact accounting procedure to be used is not definite yet, unfortunately.

However, the PPA has been informed that during the remission process the DOJ will have every record of every transaction and that that will include identifying which transactions actually went through and which did not (both "phantom deposits" and never-completed withdrawals).

With that information the PPA hopes it will be relatively easy to account for situations like yours, and your remission would hopefully be your account balance less the $100 that was never actually transferred to FTP.

Skallagrim

[ERGOPHOBIA]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

The PPA page is already up: http://theppa.org/repayment/

You can still ask questions here if you like ...

But check that page for the latest updates.

Skallagrim

Somebody tell the PPA that the banner or 3 logo's rather is the most hideously offensive thing I have ever seen. The second 2 images are fine, it is that first one being associated with them that makes me need to puke.

[robodarko]

Originally Posted by Skallagrim

The exact accounting procedure to be used is not definite yet, unfortunately.

However, the PPA has been informed that during the remission process the DOJ will have every record of every transaction and that that will include identifying which transactions actually went through and which did not (both "phantom deposits" and never-completed withdrawals).

With that information the PPA hopes it will be relatively easy to account for situations like yours, and your remission would hopefully be your account balance less the $100 that was never actually transferred to FTP.

Skallagrim

That answers my first question.

I'm not sure if there is an answer to my second question yet but I figured this might be a good place to ask it:

Are there any plans to reimburse USA players for their FTP points/medals/tickets etc?

[LetsGambool]

From the DOJ? No.

[repulse]

We don't know for sure that the DoJ will not be including a valuation of points. All of the language released yesterday was along the lines of: the agreement between Stars, FTP, and the DOJ did not include any treatment of points, but that Stars has made clear that it will be choosing to honor the value of the loyalty rewards themselves for ROW players. So Stars definitely is, and the DOJ said nothing, but it's possible that the DOJ plans to but chose not to do either of:
1) include it in its first press release
2) make it clear to Stars that they were planning to

It is probably less likely than not, but IMO there's a chance. The initial pile of cash Stars is shipping them this week is more than enough to cover full balances including points, and there are legitimate arguments as to why the points had significant cash equivalency value. The DOJ wouldn't want to be seen as giving ROW players a better deal than players in its own country. This likely translated into making sure that US players would get 100% of actual balances. Perhaps it won't translate to something as non-salient as what could be blindly passed off as just a small-value a loyalty program (despite significant balances for some), but perhaps it will.

I'm pretty sure I'd hypothetically buy US player's points value at 10%, that's all I'm sayin'.

[LetsGambool]

If that's a bid, I sell you mine at 10 cents.

[repulse]

I made sure to add "hypothetically" just for you not interested in the logistics of actually transacting on this.

[repulse]

The latest Vardi article brings a very different tone and perspective to the possibility of not being paid our full balances than most of the reports of the last 24 hours:

The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

The big question for Full Tilt’s U.S. players: will they get their poker winnings back? Several sources familiar with the situation say no decision on this vital issue has been made, but there are people at the Department of Justice who are uncomfortable with the idea of paying U.S. players money that was won in online poker games played on Full Tilt’s web site. “The section that is in charge of the remission fund hasn’t decided that question clearly and that is the next big issue,” said Jeff Ifrah, a lawyer who worked for Full Tilt Poker.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by repulse

The latest Vardi article brings a very different tone and perspective to the possibility of not being paid our full balances than most of the reports of the last 24 hours:

The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

The Vardi article is pure speculation.

It is my speculation that he engaged in his speculation solely because another mundane article on the facts of the settlement would not have been as "sexy."

Every indicator available so far points against the DOJ considering remission based on anything other than account balances.

A fuller discussion of the issue started in the Legislation forum, so we may as well keep discussion of this particular issue in that thread: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57.../#post34062387

Skallagrim

[Phatty]

In the NVG thread, there is rampant speculation about the remission process. Do we know if there was any legal reason the DOJ could not have let Pokerstars handle the payouts to US customers?

Said another way, IF it was the intention for the DOJ to refund US players full balances, could they have allowed Pokerstars to do that as they HAVE allowed Pokerstars to payout ROW players?

If the answer is "yes" they could have, what possible or likely reasons might they have to NOT allow them to do that? Why would they want to be in charge of that? The obvious, paranoid answer for some, is because they don't want or plan to pay us back.

I'm personally not in that camp and think they DO want to pay us back, but would like to understand the reasoning behind their options and their possibly reasoning.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by Phatty

In the NVG thread, there is rampant speculation about the remission process. Do we know if there was any legal reason the DOJ could not have let Pokerstars handle the payouts to US customers?

Said another way, IF it was the intention for the DOJ to refund US players full balances, could they have allowed Pokerstars to do that as they HAVE allowed Pokerstars to payout ROW players?

If the answer is "yes" they could have, what possible or likely reasons might they have to NOT allow them to do that? Why would they want to be in charge of that? The obvious, paranoid answer for some, is because they don't want or plan to pay us back.

I'm personally not in that camp and think they DO want to pay us back, but would like to understand the reasoning behind their options and their possibly reasoning.

There are 2 pretty clear reasons why the DOJ would not let Stars directly pay back US players 1) it would be unheard of for the DOJ to let a 3rd party assume responsibility for repayment to victims unless that 3rd party were also working directly under DOJ control - something that really isn't possible given that Stars operates from the Isle of Man; 2) an important part of the agreement from the DOJ's point of view is the promise that neither Stars nor FTP will operate in the US until they get a license (and only if they get a license). There would really be no practical way for Stars to pay back US players without establishing some sort of US presence, probably with a US payment processor. Using US payment processors was what really became the focus of this whole situation and the DOJ would not like the politics of 1st indicting a company over the matter then authorizing the company to continue the matter.

Also, this is the US government. They have rules and regulations for everything. And then they have sub-rules and sub-regulations. And then they have policies and sub-policies. It is just not in the nature of the US government to allow a foreign company to undertake distribution of what the US government considers its money (in the first instance) and its citizens money (in the second instance). So "normal operating procedure" was also a factor here IMO.

Skallagrim

PS - in looking at all of this it is also important to realize that if the DOJ wanted to screw US players there is no reason for them to be devious and underhanded about it. They could have easily taken the position from the beginning that all the money in question is "proceeds from illegal gambling" and that no one has a right to any of it except for them. That they did not do this says to me that they are truly serious about seeing US players repaid, they are just insisting that repayment be done according to their rules and procedures. And that is typical.

[Phatty]

Thanks for the detailed response.

One follow-up if you can. Why do you think then was Pokerstars allowed to pay back US players directly after Black Friday? Wouldn't all the same reasons that they aren't allow to pay us back now had been in effect then, too? Is there something specifically different between then and now where Stars was able to pay us back directly AND Full Tilt was given the opportunity to contrasted with now they want to handle it themselves.

[Skallagrim]

Originally Posted by Phatty

Thanks for the detailed response.

One follow-up if you can. Why do you think then was Pokerstars allowed to pay back US players directly after Black Friday? Wouldn't all the same reasons that they aren't allow to pay us back now had been in effect then, too? Is there something specifically different between then and now where Stars was able to pay us back directly AND Full Tilt was given the opportunity to contrasted with now they want to handle it themselves.

The differences are the passage of time (a small factor) and the issuance of the Fraud indictment against FTP and some of its directors (the big factor).

Once it became clear that FTP was no more to be and had defrauded its players, the DOJ (having joined the matter by charging fraud) became responsible for protecting the victims of this fraud. And once the DOJ takes responsibility for something it rarely, if ever, lets someone else handle the situation.

Skallagrim